Hofstra Gang Rape Hoax

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's not so much a "repressive view of female sexuality" as much as it is simply a horrifically near-sighted and egocentric view of other people.

Please explain.

ETA: I'm just thinking about this more. Do you think it is normal in the sense of being in the statistical middle to want to have this kind of encounter if you are female? Do you think the majority of women who would consent are healthy and unimpaired? Or is it egocentric of me to assume that it would be a positive thing generally if people didn't try to have sex with people when that sex was likely to be harmful to the other person?

Or is it just my easy willingness to pass judgment of other people's sexual behavior?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Please explain.

ETA: I'm just thinking about this more. Do you think it is normal in the sense of being in the statistical middle to want to have this kind of encounter if you are female? Do you think the majority of women who would consent are healthy and unimpaired? Or is it egocentric of me to assume that it would be a positive thing generally if people didn't try to have sex with people when that sex was likely to be harmful to the other person?

Or is it just my easy willingness to pass judgment of other people's sexual behavior?

Much more the second than the first - I'll agree that the woman has a higher-than-average chance of having "issues" of some sort, but that's all the further I'm willing to go. It's clear you're OK with going further - that's fine, and it's certainly your right, but to me that seems unnecessarily judgmental, even borderline evangelical.

Sexual mores are a snake basket - it's just so easy to run them right into religious, ethical and personal beliefs that may or may not apply. We don't know at all whether a five-dude gangbang is actually 'harmful' for this woman - we don't know what she enjoys, where her sexual preferences lie, or to what extent she believes this was actually an assault. We don't have much, if any, insight into her internal motivation - so applying our own motives to it seems, well, egocentric. As if that's the "only" or "best" way. I don't mean that to be insulting to you at all - we all do it, to an extent - but I'm not particularly a fan, especially for something like sex, where social conditioning is so strong.

The notion of sexual 'deviance' as indicative of personal, ethical or religious short-comings is, in many ways, a self-fulfilling prophecy - one driven, historically, by institutions and constructs that seek to keep sexuality in the forefront, but control it to some advantage. I'd prefer to let it stay in the bedroom, and judge this woman based on her actions afterward, which seem much more relevant and open to analysis.

[UGAalum94]

Sure. I'll buy that as some level, but I also think we can learn from other people's experience and use it to try to avoid misery or to act ethically.

It may just be the case that I don't read of many happy reports of sexual encounters like the one described and that they are out there. (I'm not sure why or where I would read about them, but that's another issue.) But it seems to be that they are far more likely to involve ill mental health and victimization than not.

I don't actually go around quizzing folks about their sex lives to pass judgment. But once you make the news for having to retract your false rape claim or for filming a women without her knowledge while you and your buddies have sex with her, it's another story.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Sure. I'll buy that as some level, but I also think we can learn from other people's experience and use it to try to avoid misery or to act ethically.

What are the ethics of sex, beyond consent? Who dictates these? There really isn't a good ethical standard, which is why laws are based really only on consent (and related elements to protect children or the mentally impaired).

It may just be the case that I don't read of many happy reports of sexual encounters like the one described and that they are out there. (I'm not sure why or where I would read about them, but that's another issue.) But it seems to be that they are far more likely to involve ill mental health and victimization than not.

This is really confirmation bias at its finest. I have no idea how many 5-man gangbangs happen, but I can guarantee I'd only hear about the ones where something goes wrong. Kind of like how I only hear about planes that are hijacked or crash.

I don't actually go around quizzing folks about their sex lives to pass judgment. But once you make the news for having to retract your false rape claim or for filming a women without her knowledge while you and your buddies have sex with her, it's another story.

Yeah, that's fair enough, I'm just saying we shouldn't extend this too far, because we simply don't know beyond the specifics of this case ... and even then, we're inferring a lot.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Kind of like how I only hear about planes that are hijacked or crash.

You must not follow the major airlines on Twitter.

AmericanAir: had 50000 flights today with no incident. Click here for more details.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

What are the ethics of sex, beyond consent? Who dictates these? There really isn't a good ethical standard, which is why laws are based really only on consent (and related elements to protect children or the mentally impaired).

This is really confirmation bias at its finest. I have no idea how many 5-man gangbangs happen, but I can guarantee I'd only hear about the ones where something goes wrong. Kind of like how I only hear about planes that are hijacked or crash.

Yeah, that's fair enough, I'm just saying we shouldn't extend this too far, because we simply don't know beyond the specifics of this case ... and even then, we're inferring a lot.

I think most ethical conduct requires that we don't hurt other people. Sure, there are exceptions: everything from legal punishments for crimes, to war, to sadomasochistic sex.

But in most cases of human interaction, one can generally conclude that if your own behavior is likely to do another person harm physically or emotionally, it might be more ethical to avoid doing that harm. Legally, I think the standard should be based on consent and I think people should be presumed competent to give consent pretty broadly. But there's a whole lot of behavior that can be legal at one standard but actually require a higher standard to be ethical or moral, and I don't see it as harmful to address that.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I think most ethical conduct requires that we don't hurt other people. Sure, there are exceptions: everything from legal punishments for crimes, to war, to sadomasochistic sex.

But in most cases of human interaction, one can generally conclude that if your own behavior is likely to do another person harm physically or emotionally, it might be more ethical to avoid doing that harm. Legally, I think the standard should be based on consent and I think people should be presumed competent to give consent pretty broadly. But there's a whole lot of behavior that can be legal at one standard but actually require a higher standard to be ethical or moral, and I don't see it as harmful to address that.

Just to make sure my response accurately portrays your feelings, you're arguing that the moral responsibility for the guys is to avoid having consensual group sex with this woman, because it might harm her reputation in 2009 America?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Just to make sure my response accurately portrays your feelings, you're arguing that the moral responsibility for the guys is to avoid having consensual group sex with this woman, because it might harm her reputation in 2009 America?

No. I'm suggesting that a women who has so little regard for her social and sexual relationships that she'll willingly engage in this kind of behavior in a public restroom, I might as well add, might not be entirely healthy and able to judge what she actually wants.

The moral responsibility kicks in from the guys because it's kind of a culturally debasing act and her actual willingness is probably pretty hard to judge.

ETA: It might be cool to live in a world where everyone did exactly as he or she choose without any concern for what other people think, but I don't think most people live in that world.

Someone risk-taking enough to engage in a 5-man gangbang as I think you put it earlier is, I think, risk-taking at a level that indicates a desire for self-harm, even if the risk-taking is mainly in the social or emotion realm, rather than physical harm.