Hofstra Gang Rape Hoax

[UGAalum94]

I agree that the whole situation is nasty.

This may be a too repressive view of female sexuality, but I don't think it's in the normal range of behavior to want to have sex with five guys on the same occasion.

I think any decent men should recognize that there's probably something wrong with the woman in question if it appears that she does want to do so. In my opinion, she may be in poor mental health or impaired by drugs and alcohol.

I'm not saying that the legal standard should make it impossible for a woman to consent to this kind of sexual encounter, just that if you are a decent human being at all, you should refrain from participating because it's so unlikely that it's a positive thing for her.

I have no idea what would make guys want to participate in that. It also seems way out of the normal range. Even if they aren't technically raping her, it seems so likely to be unhealthy mentally and emotionally that I don't get it, unless you actually like the idea of victimizing someone with your buddies.

Congratulations, guys at Hofstra. You aren't rapists. You're just dumb perverts.

[AGDee]

I get very angry at the woman when this type of thing happens. Although it shouldn't, it affects the credibility of ALL women so that when another young woman really IS gang raped, people think of cases like this and wonder if they are lying. And, what is the motive in lying about something like this???

[Little32]

^^Not to mention that these kinds of charges ruin lives, even if they are ultimately found to be untrue. The accused continue to carry that stigma.

Of course, in this situation, they should probably bear some sort of stigma, because that is nasty and troubling all around.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I agree that the whole situation is nasty.

This may be a too repressive view of female sexuality, but I don't think it's in the normal range of behavior to want to have sex with five guys on the same occasion.

I think any decent men should recognize that there's probably something wrong with the woman in question if it appears that she does want to do so. In my opinion, she may be in poor mental health or impaired by drugs and alcohol.

I'm not saying that the legal standard should make it impossible for a woman to consent to this kind of sexual encounter, just that if you are a decent human being at all, you should refrain from participating because it's so unlikely that it's a positive thing for her.

I have no idea what would make guys want to participate in that. It also seems way out of the normal range. Even if they aren't technically raping her, it seems so likely to be unhealthy mentally and emotionally that I don't get it, unless you actually like the idea of victimizing someone with your buddies.

Congratulations, guys at Hofstra. You aren't rapists. You're just dumb perverts.

Just to be clear:

Since you're proposing that it may not be in the normal range of behavior for both men and women, that means that all 6 participants are either dumb perverts or mentally and emotionally unstable. Or, both.

What's good for the goose (women) is good for the gander (men). And vice versa.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Just to be clear:

Since you're proposing that it may not be in the normal range of behavior for both men and women, that means that all 6 participants are either dumb perverts or mentally and emotionally unstable. Or, both.

What's good for the goose (women) is good for the gander (men). And vice versa.

Yeah I'm suggesting that, but for very different reasons.

I think perhaps a significant percentage of men (maybe not a majority) wouldn't mind attempting a sexual encounter with five women. I don't think that makes them abnormal because for the most part, and I think studies bear this out, more men than women are comfortable with simply physical encounters and aren't bothered by the idea of being perceived as "sluts." (This may be a bad thing socially, but it doesn't mean it's untrue.)

On the other hand, I don't think the majority of men want to be part of a five guy posse involved with sex with a crazy person.

So I think it means something bad and unhealthy about everyone involved, but not exactly the same bad and unhealthy thing.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I agree that the whole situation is nasty.

This may be a too repressive view of female sexuality, but I don't think it's in the normal range of behavior to want to have sex with five guys on the same occasion.

I think any decent men should recognize that there's probably something wrong with the woman in question if it appears that she does want to do so. In my opinion, she may be in poor mental health or impaired by drugs and alcohol.

I'm not saying that the legal standard should make it impossible for a woman to consent to this kind of sexual encounter, just that if you are a decent human being at all, you should refrain from participating because it's so unlikely that it's a positive thing for her.

I have no idea what would make guys want to participate in that. It also seems way out of the normal range. Even if they aren't technically raping her, it seems so likely to be unhealthy mentally and emotionally that I don't get it, unless you actually like the idea of victimizing someone with your buddies.

Congratulations, guys at Hofstra. You aren't rapists. You're just dumb perverts.

It's not so much a "repressive view of female sexuality" as much as it is simply a horrifically near-sighted and egocentric view of other people.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's not so much a "repressive view of female sexuality" as much as it is simply a horrifically near-sighted and egocentric view of other people.

Please explain.

ETA: I'm just thinking about this more. Do you think it is normal in the sense of being in the statistical middle to want to have this kind of encounter if you are female? Do you think the majority of women who would consent are healthy and unimpaired? Or is it egocentric of me to assume that it would be a positive thing generally if people didn't try to have sex with people when that sex was likely to be harmful to the other person?

Or is it just my easy willingness to pass judgment of other people's sexual behavior?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Please explain.

ETA: I'm just thinking about this more. Do you think it is normal in the sense of being in the statistical middle to want to have this kind of encounter if you are female? Do you think the majority of women who would consent are healthy and unimpaired? Or is it egocentric of me to assume that it would be a positive thing generally if people didn't try to have sex with people when that sex was likely to be harmful to the other person?

Or is it just my easy willingness to pass judgment of other people's sexual behavior?

Much more the second than the first - I'll agree that the woman has a higher-than-average chance of having "issues" of some sort, but that's all the further I'm willing to go. It's clear you're OK with going further - that's fine, and it's certainly your right, but to me that seems unnecessarily judgmental, even borderline evangelical.

Sexual mores are a snake basket - it's just so easy to run them right into religious, ethical and personal beliefs that may or may not apply. We don't know at all whether a five-dude gangbang is actually 'harmful' for this woman - we don't know what she enjoys, where her sexual preferences lie, or to what extent she believes this was actually an assault. We don't have much, if any, insight into her internal motivation - so applying our own motives to it seems, well, egocentric. As if that's the "only" or "best" way. I don't mean that to be insulting to you at all - we all do it, to an extent - but I'm not particularly a fan, especially for something like sex, where social conditioning is so strong.

The notion of sexual 'deviance' as indicative of personal, ethical or religious short-comings is, in many ways, a self-fulfilling prophecy - one driven, historically, by institutions and constructs that seek to keep sexuality in the forefront, but control it to some advantage. I'd prefer to let it stay in the bedroom, and judge this woman based on her actions afterward, which seem much more relevant and open to analysis.

[UGAalum94]

Sure. I'll buy that as some level, but I also think we can learn from other people's experience and use it to try to avoid misery or to act ethically.

It may just be the case that I don't read of many happy reports of sexual encounters like the one described and that they are out there. (I'm not sure why or where I would read about them, but that's another issue.) But it seems to be that they are far more likely to involve ill mental health and victimization than not.

I don't actually go around quizzing folks about their sex lives to pass judgment. But once you make the news for having to retract your false rape claim or for filming a women without her knowledge while you and your buddies have sex with her, it's another story.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Sure. I'll buy that as some level, but I also think we can learn from other people's experience and use it to try to avoid misery or to act ethically.

What are the ethics of sex, beyond consent? Who dictates these? There really isn't a good ethical standard, which is why laws are based really only on consent (and related elements to protect children or the mentally impaired).

It may just be the case that I don't read of many happy reports of sexual encounters like the one described and that they are out there. (I'm not sure why or where I would read about them, but that's another issue.) But it seems to be that they are far more likely to involve ill mental health and victimization than not.

This is really confirmation bias at its finest. I have no idea how many 5-man gangbangs happen, but I can guarantee I'd only hear about the ones where something goes wrong. Kind of like how I only hear about planes that are hijacked or crash.

I don't actually go around quizzing folks about their sex lives to pass judgment. But once you make the news for having to retract your false rape claim or for filming a women without her knowledge while you and your buddies have sex with her, it's another story.

Yeah, that's fair enough, I'm just saying we shouldn't extend this too far, because we simply don't know beyond the specifics of this case ... and even then, we're inferring a lot.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Kind of like how I only hear about planes that are hijacked or crash.

You must not follow the major airlines on Twitter.

AmericanAir: had 50000 flights today with no incident. Click here for more details.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

What are the ethics of sex, beyond consent? Who dictates these? There really isn't a good ethical standard, which is why laws are based really only on consent (and related elements to protect children or the mentally impaired).

This is really confirmation bias at its finest. I have no idea how many 5-man gangbangs happen, but I can guarantee I'd only hear about the ones where something goes wrong. Kind of like how I only hear about planes that are hijacked or crash.

Yeah, that's fair enough, I'm just saying we shouldn't extend this too far, because we simply don't know beyond the specifics of this case ... and even then, we're inferring a lot.

I think most ethical conduct requires that we don't hurt other people. Sure, there are exceptions: everything from legal punishments for crimes, to war, to sadomasochistic sex.

But in most cases of human interaction, one can generally conclude that if your own behavior is likely to do another person harm physically or emotionally, it might be more ethical to avoid doing that harm. Legally, I think the standard should be based on consent and I think people should be presumed competent to give consent pretty broadly. But there's a whole lot of behavior that can be legal at one standard but actually require a higher standard to be ethical or moral, and I don't see it as harmful to address that.