Second Presidential Debate

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

See, some of us feel like Obama is FINALLY someone who can empathize with us and who FINALLY understands how we feel and sees the world from OUR point of view. That's why he feels like a breath of fresh air to us.

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

I was raised in a single parent household, for starters....

small difference, my father died when I was 5 weeks...

I still managed to make it thru school, college and did all of this in a rough environment and still have my head on straight.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

My answer goes much farther than social class. The things he talks about are the things I care about. Perhaps a lot of it is political propaganda, but he is talking about the things that matter most to me. He has been pushing for equal pay for equal work for women. I'm in agreement with him on issues like abortion and embryonic stem cell research. I think his health care plan will be more effective than McCain's, although I'm not sure either is the perfect answer. I agree with his views on Iraq but I don't feel like he would be 'soft' if we really need to go to war with someone. I agree with him on energy issues (that we need to move away from oil not just find more and that wind and solar are preferable to nuclear). And, while it has been minimized as unimportant and lacking any real duties, his work as a community organizer has put him more in touch with the issues that occur in lower income urban areas. Perhaps some of it is even related to where they serve. Detroiters can certainly relate to Chicago and it's problems more than they can to Arizona. To us, Arizona is the warm nirvana where people go to retire. Many of us see Chicago as the city that Detroit should've/could've been. Both have urban grit, but Chicago has the business/shopping/tourist districts that Detroit so desperately wants to have. I would probably feel like I could relate more to someone who served in New York than in Montana too.

That's my short answer, because this hard-working single mom has to get some groceries before her she gets her kids back from their dad tomorrow I can also say that I have it MUCH easier than many single moms because their dad is very involved in their lives (we have 50-50 custody). Financially it makes it tougher, but experientially, it's a much better deal.

[CrackerBarrel]

DS: In fact "I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy" would seem to indicate the exactly opposite of what you're saying, he quite clearly wants to tax the wealthy if they are the ones not getting tax cuts.

BUT I don't really care to defend the tax system or income tax plans anyways. FAIR Tax all the way, baby.

[AOII Angel]

I don't want to have to cut coupons, spend a max of $100 a week on groceries. I'm not an elitist. I worked long and hard to get where I am. I lived off of $9000 a year...a YEAR for four years in medical school. Worked 120 hrs per week with 36 hr call every three nights as a surgery resident for the grand total of $35,000 for two years before moving to a more reasonable residency that only required 70 hrs a week with 30 hr call once or twice a week. I did this for 6 years while my student loans accrued interest that I couldn't pay since the payment is $1000 a month. From Kindergarten through residency, my education lasted 27 years! Add into that my husband's med school debt, my mortgage and you see a woman with a LOT of debt with a husband who makes a minimal salary as a fellow at Hopkins. No one will choose to go through what I did just to pay more than their fair share once they finally get to the point where they are paid appropriately for their level of education. I deserve to be comfortable, and I'm not going to be made to feel guilty that I make a good living.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I worked long and hard to get where I am. I lived off of $9000 a year...a YEAR for four years in medical school. Add into that my husband's med school debt, my mortgage and you see a woman with a LOT of debt with a husband who makes a minimal salary as a fellow at Hopkins. No one will choose to go through what I did just to pay more than their fair share once they finally get to the point where they are paid appropriately for their level of education. I deserve to be comfortable, and I'm not going to be made to feel guilty that I make a good living.

Exactly what I'm saying! I don't know if you're practicing now, but that's certainly not an easy job...pretty much 'on-call' 24/7. You busted your ass through school, why do you have to contribute more.

That's why I don't get why people are so upset that he's not going to tax the wealthy. It's not like everyone making 6 figures is stealing it from little-old-ladies coffee cans.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Exactly what I'm saying! I don't know if you're practicing now, but that's certainly not an easy job...pretty much 'on-call' 24/7. You busted your ass through school, why do you have to contribute more.

That's why I don't get why people are so upset that he's not going to tax the wealthy. It's not like everyone making 6 figures is stealing it from little-old-ladies coffee cans.

I am an Obama supporter, because taxes to me are not the most important issue in this election for me, but...I was so mad at Biden when he basically said that it was time for people who made over $250,000 to be patriotic and pay more taxes! What!??? I'm not patriotic paying the taxes that I already pay, caring for many poor, nonpaying patients in Prince George's County, MD? Yes, I'm currently in practice...only for 1 year, so I haven't had much time yet to enjoy my success!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I am an Obama supporter, because taxes to me are not the most important issue in this election for me, but...I was so mad at Biden when he basically said that it was time for people who made over $250,000 to be patriotic and pay more taxes! What!??? I'm not patriotic paying the taxes that I already pay, caring for many poor, nonpaying patients in Prince George's County, MD? Yes, I'm currently in practice...only for 1 year, so I haven't had much time yet to enjoy my success!

Tying patriotism to the payment of taxes is a slippery slope, in my opinion. If you're going to be doing that, then you should not be taking advantage of any tax credits or deductions, and you should be paying the full amount of taxes levied each year. If you suggest that those who are against paying higher taxes are unpatriotic, and you're not paying every dime of your tax burden, it's a bit hypocritical.

[AGDee]

The physicians in my health care system don't get paid $250K a year. They get around $150K a year. Therefore, they would not be in the group that would get taxed more.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Tying patriotism to the payment of taxes is a slippery slope, in my opinion. If you're going to be doing that, then you should not be taking advantage of any tax credits or deductions, and you should be paying the full amount of taxes levied each year. If you suggest that those who are against paying higher taxes are unpatriotic, and you're not paying every dime of your tax burden, it's a bit hypocritical.

I completely agree with you, and I hope you didn't misread my statement above, because it is completely ridiculous to imply that more affluent Americans are not patriotic for opposing a tax increase while middle and lower income Americans can maintain their patriotic appearance while doing the same thing!

[nittanyalum]

For anyone who missed the SNL special last night (it was on against Grey's so I'm sure lots of people missed it ) -- this is their take on the 2nd debate: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Li...e-open/742065/

(the link on the right for Seth & Amy's "Really?" segment on Update is worth a click too)

[AOII Angel]

Personally, I don't think anyone is going to be able to pass a comprehensive health care plan because the US is so different than any country with "successful" socialized medicine. Our patients (whether or not they have insurance) expect every test under the sun and perfect care. Unfortunately, in a socialized system costs have to be contained in order that everybody can get care. That means that somewhere, there is a board that gets to decide who can get expensive procedures. In other countries, you can't go on dialysis if you are over a certain age. In this country, there are no limits to dialysis and every dialysis patient is completely funded by Medicaid. In other countries, you can not be admitted to the ICU if you are over 50 years old. If you stop breathing, you get to stop breathing without a ventilator to save you.
The major problem with the cost of health care is the malpractice liability that causes physicians to practice "cover your ass" medicine rather than the evidence based medicine we all aspire to.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Unfortunately, in a socialized system costs have to be contained in order that everybody can get care. That means that somewhere, there is a board that gets to decide who can get expensive procedures. In other countries, you can't go on dialysis if you are over a certain age. In this country, there are no limits to dialysis and every dialysis patient is completely funded by Medicaid. In other countries, you can not be admitted to the ICU if you are over 50 years old. If you stop breathing, you get to stop breathing without a ventilator to save you.

It's funny that you mention this...I was talking to a friend last night who thinks we should have socialized medicine. I was reminding him that my Canadian friends say that with socialized medicine, "you won't die," but the emphasis isn't on preventive medicine like it is here. I like the fact that I can call my doctor today and be assured a spot within the next week or so. I like the fact that older relatives can get preventive care. A lot of people, usually liberals, blindly believe that if US medicine became socialized, that we'd have the same quality of healthcare at a lower price. Wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

It's funny that you mention this...I was talking to a friend last night who thinks we should have socialized medicine. I was reminding him that my Canadian friends say that with socialized medicine, "you won't die," but the emphasis isn't on preventive medicine like it is here. I like the fact that I can call my doctor today and be assured a spot within the next week or so. I like the fact that older relatives can get preventive care. A lot of people, usually liberals, blindly believe that if US medicine became socialized, that we'd have the same quality of healthcare at a lower price. Wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

Exactly! If we did have socialized medicine, we'd then have two different systems- one for free and the other with better care for a cost. We'd have to hear about how poor people don't get the same care, but there is no way you can do everything. Our resources are limited. We have too few doctors. Did you know that in Canada, doctors have a limit to the number of cases they can see in a year so once they see that many, you don't see anymore. Can you imagine not being able to see your doctor for 6 months because s/he already saw his/her quota for the year?