Gays in fraternites (pt. 2)

[jlenoconel]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

This is interesting because there are homosexuals across the spectrum.

Liberal, radical, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Independent...yada yada yada....of course it is more difficult to be an out of the closet homosexual if you're pushing for traditional marriage, which can explain why Conservative Republicans get outted by the media.

There are flamboyant and stereotypical heterosexuals just as there are flamboyant and stereotypical homosexuals. There are heterosexuals who try to force their lifestyle and viewpoints on everyone else and there are homosexuals who do the same.

Despite that fact, heterosexuals don't get pigeon holed and neither should homosexuals. Someone who has truly been exposed to the diversity of opinions held by people of different sexual orientations and masculinities-femininities will understand that.

I agree with this. Oh, and the person who tried calling me Sally or nelly or whatever can go screw. I have a right to be on this board because I am in college and I wanna have a say. I understand what a fraternity is and I understand how "macho" its supposed to be. If I was in a fraternity, my boyfriend or whatever wouldn't be showing up, why would he? Its up to people how they feel anyway, I obviously can't stop what you feel. I would just like to see the day when you are in the position of being ridiculed for some reason and see how you respond. Also, I am not really politically active in any type of community i.e. the gay community because I don't think that just because I am homosexual, that I should be in any community. But, lets say hypothetically that I wanted to join a fraternity, would the fact I prefer men get me kicked out. Even if I didn't have a boyfriend or whatever and kept my sex life private.

The funny thing is, most people (mainly other men) are afraid of homosexuality because of what has been portrayed in the media, or by gossip. Did you even know that some gay men don't like or engage in anal sex? Did you know there are plenty of men out there who engage in homosexual acts in similar social circles to yours but clock themselves as straight? Do you know the amount of men who get paid to perform homosexual acts for money who say they are straight?!! You know very little by the looks of things. I am not effeminate buddy, sorry to rain on YOUR parade. I lift weights and I am not really interested in fashion or anything like that. I can be sensitive, but so what? I am young and inexperienced when it comes to some things in life.

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

Define "judging." I don't think I'm a better person than a gay person. I don't think I'm a better Christian than a gay person. In my mind, it is one less sin I'm not committing, but I'm sure I make up for it, and I don't think being gay is more of a sin than any of the ones I commit consistently. But not judging doesn't mean accepting. Jesus loved and associated with people who sinned, but that doesn't mean he condoned their sins. Of course this probably doesn't mean anything to you because you don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but I do, so that is my take on this. So no, I don't think I'm judging you when I don't invite a gay person into my fraternity. If there is a kid who is a bad student, I probably wouldn't want him in my fraternity. That doesn't mean I won't associate with him, and it doesn't mean I think I'm better than he is. It means I don't think he's a good fit for this organization.

I'm not nervous about homosexuality. I have no idea why I am naturally repulsed by it, but I am, just the same. I also noticed you said "exclud[ing] another human being," and I don't get what you're saying here. We aren't excluding gay people from society. We're not saying you can't go to college, we're not saying you can't work here. We're saying it is unlikely you'll be a member of a fraternity, which in my situation, is analogous to a private social club. I wouldn't knowingly invite liberals to join my imaginary conservative club, and I'm not going to knowingly invite gay guys to join a group of similarly-minded straight guys (but one could be gay!!! I know, unlikely,doesn't matter anyway, good try). If we need to let gay people in because they're "human beings" then we should let everyone in, and thus, what the hell is the point of a fraternity. I can be around "everyone" by stepping outside my door.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

I agree with this. Oh, and the person who tried calling me Sally or nelly or whatever can go screw. I have a right to be on this board because I am in college and I wanna have a say. I understand what a fraternity is and I understand how "macho" its supposed to be. If I was in a fraternity, my boyfriend or whatever wouldn't be showing up, why would he? Its up to people how they feel anyway, I obviously can't stop what you feel. I would just like to see the day when you are in the position of being ridiculed for some reason and see how you respond. Also, I am not really politically active in any type of community i.e. the gay community because I don't think that just because I am homosexual, that I should be in any community. But, lets say hypothetically that I wanted to join a fraternity, would the fact I prefer men get me kicked out. Even if I didn't have a boyfriend or whatever and kept my sex life private.

The funny thing is, most people (mainly other men) are afraid of homosexuality because of what has been portrayed in the media, or by gossip. Did you even know that some gay men don't like or engage in anal sex? Did you know there are plenty of men out there who engage in homosexual acts in similar social circles to yours but clock themselves as straight? Do you know the amount of men who get paid to perform homosexual acts for money who say they are straight?!! You know very little by the looks of things. I am not effeminate buddy, sorry to rain on YOUR parade. I lift weights and I am not really interested in fashion or anything like that. I can be sensitive, but so what? I am young and inexperienced when it comes to some things in life.

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

You have your own image of fraternities based on stereotypes or what you've been exposed. People have their own image of homosexual men based on stereotypes or what they've been exposed. It's par for the course.

You came to GreekChat to pick people's brains and point the finger--and you're not even in a fraternity or admitting to considering joining one. I guess we all need our hobbies.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

I agree with this. Oh, and the person who tried calling me Sally or nelly or whatever can go screw. I have a right to be on this board because I am in college and I wanna have a say. I understand what a fraternity is and I understand how "macho" its supposed to be. If I was in a fraternity, my boyfriend or whatever wouldn't be showing up, why would he? Its up to people how they feel anyway, I obviously can't stop what you feel. I would just like to see the day when you are in the position of being ridiculed for some reason and see how you respond. Also, I am not really politically active in any type of community i.e. the gay community because I don't think that just because I am homosexual, that I should be in any community. But, lets say hypothetically that I wanted to join a fraternity, would the fact I prefer men get me kicked out. Even if I didn't have a boyfriend or whatever and kept my sex life private.

The funny thing is, most people (mainly other men) are afraid of homosexuality because of what has been portrayed in the media, or by gossip. Did you even know that some gay men don't like or engage in anal sex? Did you know there are plenty of men out there who engage in homosexual acts in similar social circles to yours but clock themselves as straight? Do you know the amount of men who get paid to perform homosexual acts for money who say they are straight?!! You know very little by the looks of things. I am not effeminate buddy, sorry to rain on YOUR parade. I lift weights and I am not really interested in fashion or anything like that. I can be sensitive, but so what? I am young and inexperienced when it comes to some things in life.

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

You just said that you are NOT in a Fraternity.
This IS a board for members, and interested parties, of GLO's.
I need my morning coffee real bad now.....

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

Buddy, homosexuality is a sin according to the bible....or did you overlook that whole part about marriage, sex, what is natural, etc. etc. I'm certainly not saying I'm completely free of sins, but you can't sit here and call people "fools" for not being openly accepting of homosexuals if, in fact, they are Christians.

I can't speak for anyone else, but homosexuality doesn't make me "nervous" at all. I wouldn't be voting against you being in my house out of fear or something similar. I would be voting against you because the probability of you meshing well with our group of guys is probably very small. The fact that homosexuality is something that many, many members of our house morally object to is going to play a role as well.

[bowsandtoes]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Buddy, homosexuality is a sin according to the bible....or did you overlook that whole part about marriage, sex, what is natural, etc. etc. I'm certainly not saying I'm completely free of sins, but you can't sit here and call people "fools" for not being openly accepting of homosexuals if, in fact, they are Christians.

I can't speak for anyone else, but homosexuality doesn't make me "nervous" at all. I wouldn't be voting against you being in my house out of fear or something similar. I would be voting against you because the probability of you meshing well with our group of guys is probably very small. The fact that homosexuality is something that many, many members of our house morally object to is going to play a role as well.

On a similar note, I hate how anyone that doesn't openly embrace a homosexual lifestyle is labeled as "homophobic". There's a huge difference between fearing something and being disgusted by it. Insinuating that someone who dislikes homosexuals has some sort of moral flaw is essentially playing the same card as people who dislike homosexuals because they view it as immoral. Get off your high horse. You can be gay all you want, but not in my fraternity, my church, or my circle of friends.

In the past week or so the campus newspaper has been trying to make a big issue of gay faculty wanting health benefits for their partners. Regardless of whether the majority of students want this (which is up for debate), its completely outside the jurisdiction of the school. The university if funded by the Texas State legislature who have final say over basically everything. If the school tries to make an issue of this and fight the legislature its just going to hurt the school (not that the gay community cares about that).

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

In the past week or so the campus newspaper has been trying to make a big issue of gay faculty wanting health benefits for their partners. Regardless of whether the majority of students want this (which is up for debate), its completely outside the jurisdiction of the school. The university if funded by the Texas State legislature who have final say over basically everything. If the school tries to make an issue of this and fight the legislature its just going to hurt the school (not that the gay community cares about that).

If you read the newspaper regularly, you'd realize it's not gay faculty who've been pushing for it as much as heterosexual grad students (specifically one, who decided to write a proposal on this) who are politically aware. The was the one faculty member who in Middle Eastern Studies (I think) who did the hunger strike last semester to raise awareness of the issue and the campaign has been proposed & carried by grad students ever since. The article in the Texan on Friday focused on faculty perspectives but the initial move to have a vote on this in the senate of college councils was led by grad students.

I'm not really sure how it is going to hurt the school. Our current policy is already hurting us in terms of faculty recruitment and retention. That said, I'm also not sure how successful the campaign can be given the strictures put on by the legislature.

[DSTRen13]

My pledge ed (OPhiA) was a lesbian. No one cared. But that was the nature of our particular chapter.

If you're going to join an organization where your [insert issue - gender, race, disability, religion, whatever the heck your deal is - here] is going to raise eyebrows, plus some tempers, then you just need to accept that upfront and go in aware and prepared to handle it. If you CANNOT HANDLE IT, then either choose another organization or stay away entirely. None of us needs your whiny drama.

[DSTRen13]

Do we REALLY have to get into a discussion here about how people interpret the Bible??? Seriously?

You can't force someone to interpret a Biblical passage the same way you do. That's why there are different denominations of Christianity. Get over it, move along.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by GreekChatObserv

Are you referring to Levitical law? Your bible has also been used to justify slavery. It also advocates the stoning of disobedient children and adulterous wives.

It is interesting how people pick and choose from religious texts that may or may not govern other people.

Yep. People are real sometimey when it comes to religion and religious texts. If you are going to be a literal stickler about something like homosexuality, why not be a literal stickler about everything else? That's why it's annoying when these types of discussions turn into "hellfire and damnation" discussions.

Great name, btw.

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

You can't force someone to interpret a Biblical passage the same way you do. That's why there are different denominations of Christianity.

Yep and different interpretations and opinions within the same denomination. That's why I'm nondenominational but attend denominational churches. It allows me to dismiss everyone.

I don't interpret the Bible literally and I don't trust anyone's Scriptural interpretations. My pastor's sermons are equivalent to Bible as Literature sermons that are tied to life lessons and spirituality. He doesn't try to tell us how we should interpret texts as they relate to issues like homosexuality--we don't even discuss stuff like that thank God.

People are so obsessed with "religion as text" and need to move toward a spiritual relationship in which how you live your life is based on YOUR relationship with God.

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

People are so obsessed with "religion as text" and need to move toward a spiritual relationship in which how you live your life is based on YOUR relationship with God.

AMEN.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by GreekChatObserv

Are you referring to Levitical law? Your bible has also been used to justify slavery. It also advocates the stoning of disobedient children and adulterous wives.

It is interesting how people pick and choose from religious texts that may or may not govern other people.

Do you eat shellfish?

Funny, that plank in your eye.

Genesis, Romans, Corinthians, and Leviticus all speak about homosexuality.

That's besides the point though.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm not sitting here saying "you're wrong for being a homosexual because my King James pocket bible says so". I didn't say that at all actually, nor did I try to "pick and choose" a certain text from the bible to rationalize my beliefs. My statement had nothing to do with my beliefs as a Christian.

I simply stated that you can't call a bunch of people fools or hypocrites because they consider themselves Christians and are not accepting of homosexuality. You could certainly argue the Bible's stance on homosexuality if you wanted too but that's another discussion entirely.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by GreekChatObserv

Are you referring to Levitical law? Your bible has also been used to justify slavery. It also advocates the stoning of disobedient children and adulterous wives.

It is interesting how people pick and choose from religious texts that may or may not govern other people.

Do you eat shellfish?

Funny, that plank in your eye.

As he noted, he's referring to more than the levitical law.

But as for shellfish, c'mon. The church has, say for about 2000 years, distinguished between the ritual law (such as the levitical laws regarding food or clothing materials) and the ethical law (such as laws governing moral, including sexual, behavior). There's actually some discussion about it in Acts, including the decision of the council in Jerusalem that Gentile converts did not have to be circumcised and the revelation to Peter that all foods were permissible. Paul discusses this as well, along with his not infrequent discussions about the degree to which the Law is binding in general. (And his condemnation of homosexual behavior in Romans.)

As for slavery, yes many did use Scripture to condone slavery. Unlike the passages regarding homosexuality, though, I don't think anyone has ever plausibly contended that Scripture affirmatively sanctions or commands slavery, just that it seems to accept it as a fact of the ancient world and does not condemn it. Using this lack of condemnation as justification for slavery is really not the same thing as relying on passages that expressly disapprove of homosexual conduct.

Granted, many Christians of good faith disagree on exectly how the relevant passages in Genesis, Leviticus, Romans and elsewhere should be interpreted and applied today. And perhaps you find the church's long-standing distinction between the ritual law and the ethical law one that misses the mark.

But to argue that anyone is picking and choosing which rules to follow bases one's argument on ignorance and a very shallow understanding of the totality of Scripture -- it sounds catchy, but it doesn't hold up to any close examination, IMHO.

[Tom Earp]

And, now I am coming to the conclustions, who really gives a damn?

This Poster had become a thorn. He is an independent think as it were and no matter what he thinks or says will not change anything.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But to argue that anyone is picking and choosing which rules to follow bases one's argument on ignorance and a very shallow understanding of the totality of Scripture -- it sounds catchy, but it doesn't hold up to any close examination, IMHO.

You mean, it doesn't hold up in a Biblical Court of Law? LOL.

A lot of people don't understand the "totality of Scripture" so they do pick and choose. That may not be what's going on in this thread but, as always, the things being typed here are said everyday off of the internet.