Too fat to recruit: or, DePauw, the Sequel

[Tippiechick]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Hiding the fat girls in back will ensure more rushees pledge your chapter.

If you know that to be true, is it worth it to hurt a sister's feelings? My answer is yes.

You make me want to stab my eyes out with your superficial bullshit.

BTW, in my experience, the kitchen members were from the largest chapters. Yes, I have met some of them...

To me, I would rather have 30 truly exceptional SISTERS than 300 women joined by name only.

[James]

But what if having these 30 exceptional sisters prevents you from having 70 more exceptional sisters?

Originally Posted by Tippiechick

You make me want to stab my eyes out with your superficial bullshit.

BTW, in my experience, the kitchen members were from the largest chapters. Yes, I have met some of them...

To me, I would rather have 30 truly exceptional SISTERS than 300 women joined by name only.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by James

But what if having these 30 exceptional sisters prevents you from having 70 more exceptional sisters?

If the appearance of the current sisters is the only reason 70 won't join, it's hard to accept that the 70 would be more exceptional, I suspect.

We all want fun, social chapters (into which attractiveness figures; let's be honest), but we don't want a sisterhood based only on physical attractiveness.

[Drolefille]

This whole thread bothers me because I have a sister who was born without her arm from just below the elbow down. It is the LAST thing I think about when I think about her. However it is the FIRST thing new people see when they meet her. Should she be hidden if she could maybe put off some PNMs? Does it matter that she competes and wins beauty pageants? She's gorgeous, but only has one hand. She's a great rusher, but she only has one hand. Some PNMS will NOT be able to get past that.

No way in hell would I shove her in the closet or in the kitchen or whatever just because some PNMs would make stupid judgements because of it.

-And yes being heavy is comparable. Sometimes that's just what size you are-

[AnatraAmore]

Another question... if you were the chapter in this situation (competitive Greek school) and you had a National Consultant telling you to "create this image" during recruitment, would you do it? Would you risk hurting the sisters you have to keep your chapter open, or would you take the risks of not and try to find another way to expand your numbers? (Knowing that you might not be successful either way and it could mean the end of your chapter... )

Also - think about weighing the risk of going against what your NO is telling you to do. You are a group of 18 - 22 year old (on average) women who are being told that if you want your chapter to survive, this is what you'll do. How many chapters can look a National Officer in the face and refuse?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This whole thread bothers me because I have a sister who was born without her arm from just below the elbow down. It is the LAST thing I think about when I think about her. However it is the FIRST thing new people see when they meet her. Should she be hidden if she could maybe put off some PNMs? Does it matter that she competes and wins beauty pageants? She's gorgeous, but only has one hand. She's a great rusher, but she only has one hand. Some PNMS will NOT be able to get past that.

No way in hell would I shove her in the closet or in the kitchen or whatever just because some PNMs would make stupid judgements because of it.

-And yes being heavy is comparable. Sometimes that's just what size you are-

I wouldn't tell anyone who wanted to that they couldn't rush, but I do think weight is a little different in the sense that it gets to be a group identity as the fat group, or so people fear. It seems really unlikely that there'd be a similar fear in your sister's case.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by carnation

Well, since you don't know me from Adam, you wouldn't know. I already said that I didn't agree with what I'd observed but I was, like lyrelyre said, calling them as I saw them.

Rather than try to start something with an ad hominem attack, why don't you pm me if you have any issues with me, whoever you are?

I judge from past posts in different forums.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Let's drop the debate about whether rushees care about fat girls and whether you want superficial rushees in your chapter, and work from the following premise:

Hiding the fat girls in back will ensure more rushees pledge your chapter.

If you know that to be true, is it worth it to hurt a sister's feelings? My answer is yes. The only way for a small chapter to recover at a big school is to increase numbers.

I know I will get a lot of responses about quality over quantity, but you simply can not be a strong chapter if you are much smaller than the others. You don't have the money, you don't have the number of women volunteering their time as officers, and you don't have the presence on campus.

It's unfortunate, but it has to be done.

You are my sister and I should try to be respectful, but since what you said really offended me, I don't care. I am thankful that the women who are on our executive board are of different sizes, shapes, hair color, eye color, etc. They are unique in their own ways when it comes to looks. I would hope that NONE of them share the same opinion you have.

I am SO thankful that my chapter sisters weren't shallow. We've always accepted anyone as long as they were a fit to the chapter. Maybe there were a few here and there who were definately shallow, but for the most part everyone was welcomed.

If someone, skinny or plus size, had an odd personality that turned everyone off (and I mean EVERYONE because I've known at least one person from every sorority I've ever met that has been like this) then I can see finding something in the back for them to do. But don't tell them. There is no need for hurt feelings. These women are your SISTERS. You are supposed to have a bond with them whether you like them or not. And anyone who feels otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I wouldn't tell anyone who wanted to that they couldn't rush, but I do think weight is a little different in the sense that it gets to be a group identity as the fat group, or so people fear. It seems really unlikely that there'd be a similar fear in your sister's case.

Because weird or freak isn't just as much of an "identity?"
A heavy girl no more makes her entire chapter seem heavy than my pledge sister made our chapter all "freaks." (A term I use here with extreme disgust)

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Because weird or freak isn't just as much of an "identity?"
A heavy girl no more makes her entire chapter seem heavy than my pledge sister made our chapter all "freaks." (A term I use here with extreme disgust)

Because partial armlessness isn't common enough for a group to worry about it becoming a group identity is what I actually meant.

I apologize if my joking about "freak show" was offensive in the earlier context. Another poster said something about a member being so unattractive as to turn off all the PNM who saw her, and I had a hard time imaging exactly what she meant.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the appearance related crap is ever really about any one member. One girl won't make a chapter "the fat chapter" anyway. But a chapter who is under pressure from nationals to get their numbers up is struggling with image problems generally most likely; and in an image driven recruitment, part of the way to address that might seem to be to make sisters who fit the stereotype less visible.

But again, I've already said that I wouldn't handle it by hiding members during rush.

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I wouldn't tell anyone who wanted to that they couldn't rush, but I do think weight is a little different in the sense that it gets to be a group identity as the fat group, or so people fear. It seems really unlikely that there'd be a similar fear in your sister's case.

If you apply that thinking, then those same people would think that that was the "armless" peoples' house, just because one sister happened to have a physical disability. Whatever way you look at it, it's the same ignorance and shallow thinking.

[James]

If you collected a random group of people you would expect them to cluster around average traits.

Assuming that average is not overweight enough to be "fat," you would expect most groups of girls to not be fat as an aggregate.

Whenever you have a group that significantly deviates from the norm, there is something going on. The larger the deviation the more it makes you wonder. The larger the deviation the more consequences that there are, both good and bad.

If you have a group with a collective GPA of 4.0, you know that people have been selecting for GPA or else some odd social drift has occurred thats resulted in that configuration.

However, after a while that can become self selecting. People with a very high GPA may be attracted to that group out of comfort and people with a lower GPA might feel like the group would be a bad fit for them.

So even though a 4.0 GPA is considered desirable trait, it could actually limit the group's size, because it doesn't reflect the population enough.

The same thing is going to happen if the percentage of girls in the chapter that are overweight enough to be seen as overweight start be out of proportion to the population the chapter is attempting to recruit from.

People are drawn to similarity.

Thats just the way it is.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

If the appearance of the current sisters is the only reason 70 won't join, it's hard to accept that the 70 would be more exceptional, I suspect.

We all want fun, social chapters (into which attractiveness figures; let's be honest), but we don't want a sisterhood based only on physical attractiveness.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by James

If you collected a random group of people you would expect them to cluster around average traits.

Assuming that average is not overweight enough to be "fat," you would expect most groups of girls to not be fat as an aggregate.

Whenever you have a group that significantly deviates from the norm, there is something going on. The larger the deviation the more it makes you wonder. The larger the deviation the more consequences that there are, both good and bad.

If you have a group with a collective GPA of 4.0, you know that people have been selecting for GPA or else some odd social drift has occurred thats resulted in that configuration.

However, after a while that can become self selecting. People with a very high GPA may be attracted to that group out of comfort and people with a lower GPA might feel like the group would be a bad fit for them.

So even though a 4.0 GPA is considered desirable trait, it could actually limit the group's size, because it doesn't reflect the population enough.

The same thing is going to happen if the percentage of girls in the chapter that are overweight enough to be seen as overweight start be out of proportion to the population the chapter is attempting to recruit from.

People are drawn to similarity.

Thats just the way it is.

Uh, no.

What your example is missing is that the groups actively discriminate based on certain traits.

If we were talking about the PNMs self-selecting where they went, we might get your results over time for the reason of comfort in similarity, but not if there's active discrimination. And there is.

The fat girls end up in one group (if they do) not simply because people are drawn to similarity but because they are actively excluded other places.

[James]

Ack . . I must not have been clear in my post. I said that after you have built a population profile it become self selecting.

Active selection is discrimination by the group. However, once a group reflects a certain profile it will attract like members and welcome them.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Uh, no.

What your example is missing is that the groups actively discriminate based on certain traits.

If we were talking about the PNMs self-selecting where they went, we might get your results over time for the reason of comfort in similarity, but not if there's active discrimination. And there is.

The fat girls end up in one group (if they do) not simply because people are drawn to similarity but because they are actively excluded other places.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by James

Ack . . I must not have been clear in my post. I said that after you have built a population profile it become self selecting.

Active selection is discrimination by the group. However, once a group reflects a certain profile it will attract like members and welcome them.

I don't think this is exactly it. It's not that authentic a process.

The groups all actually value the same traits in new members for the most part, but there are artificial pressures on the groups like quota and chapter total.

[Tippiechick]

Originally Posted by James

But what if having these 30 exceptional sisters prevents you from having 70 more exceptional sisters?

Then what is the point of having a sisterly bond? If you are willing to throw aside the women you chose to be sisters for ones you now consider to be better, what does that say about your sisterhood? I'd say that's a pretty bad statement.