Homeless people

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think he was being unreasonable. If a person wants to get blitzed and forget about his worries, and he values that more than food, what's the big deal? Enabling an addict on the streets is not really a bad thing. If that's what the addict wants to do, who are you to judge?

WOW. That is completely and totally wrong. That's an awful thing to say about feeding someone's addiction, it totally adds to the decline of society itself.




And yet, it doesn't make me the least bit mad. I completely and totally understand it, in fact, I even sort of agree with this statement. What's happening to me???? I've changed....

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

WOW. That is completely and totally wrong. That's an awful thing to say about feeding someone's addiction, it totally adds to the decline of society itself.

Well, look at it this way -- you give them money, you're merely providing them with a vehicle to continue to survive in the 'homeless lifestyle.' You're removing any sort of motivation for them to get off their asses and change their fortune. That is equally -- if not more harmful than the situation Tom described.

In Tom's situation, the guy wasn't even looking for a handout. He was trading one type of good for another. He valued alcohol more than food. It's not a healthy choice, but someone who is on the street has already made an unhealthy choice to be and to remain on the street. I don't understand how that feeds the "decline of society."

[EE-BO]

The ultimate point here is that you just cannot get riled up when a homeless person approaches you- even if they get aggressive. If you are in imminent danger or are attacked, that is one thing- but otherwise you just gotta not worry about it.

At some times in life we all get short/nasty/agitated with people we can afford to treat like that. It is an ugly fact, but crap rolls downhill- whether it should or not.

I personally think that many people get so upset about homeless people invading their sense of social status because they cannot control the situation.

If a waiter or salesperson gets out of line, you can complain and remediate the situation- getting some kind of sense of personal justice in the process that validates your position in society.

But if a homeless person does that, who are you going to complain to? What hold or control do you have over that person? None!

Yet this also raises the question, why get so riled up about it in the first place?

Insecurity? Ego? A sense of entitlement to more insulation from the real world?

All of these things apply- and we are all guilty.

When I was in college at Georgia, a homeless man once asked me for money on the street one night and I ignored him. He asked me, "Can you spare some change?"

I stiffened up and walked on- agitated at being asked.

Another homeless guy sitting next to him said, as I walked by all puffed up, "Shit, he can't even spare a walk!" And he said it so perfectly- just picture Redd Foxx saying it back in his glory days as a standup comedian.

I have never forgotten that because it was a reminder that at some level we are all the same and we are all destined to live in a world in which we have no ability to fully ensure that life's events only approach us on the terms we want.

So I don't sweat it anymore. If anything, it is nice to be reminded that no matter where I get in the world- at a certain point I am no better than anyone else.

Maybe a bit overly philosophical, but that is how I see it. And I am grateful for the fact I am person in a position to make the choice to see it like that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

I personally think that many people get so upset about homeless people invading their sense of social status because they cannot control the situation.

Or perhaps we consider it rude and immoral to beg? Perhaps it offends our moral decency that someone who we know could very well choose to take advantage of the vast resources available to them and have a better life (and does not) is invading our space requesting that we subsidize their life choice?

Perhaps we find it offensive that (as is the case with the man in the wheelchair who obviously didn't need it) these people have the mental wherewithall to stoop to deception in order to take advantage of peoples' charity so that they may make whatever living they do? I left out the fact that this occured downtown on St. Patrick's day -- you typically have a large population of people downtown for the parade who normally aren't downtown and normally do not see the same beggars on a daily basis (easy marks).

I'm not even sure these folks are homeless to be honest. They could very well be doing what they're doing as a way to earn easy money on the weekends. As inexpensive as the cost of living here is, to be actually homeless takes some serious effort.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Explain how it's not a choice for someone with an able body/mind.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Or perhaps we consider it rude and immoral to beg? Perhaps it offends our moral decency that someone who we know could very well choose to take advantage of the vast resources available to them and have a better life (and does not) is invading our space requesting that we subsidize their life choice?

And herein, I think, lies the problem that many of us have about this whole situation. How do we know a particular homeless person is of able mind or body or could very well choose to take advantage of the vast resources available to them and have a better life? We can assume it, but how do we know? I'll readily grant that your example at the start of this thread gave every indication of not needing the wheel chair he was using. (Although is it possible that he had become adept at using a wheel chair but for reasons not apparent he really couldn't stand or walk? I don't know.) But mental illnesses in particular may not be at all obvious, and not all phsyical limitations are obvious either.

The reality is that usually we don't really know. We can assume and guess, but we don't know for sure unless we actually take some time with the person, and even then can we know for sure? Occasionally it may be pretty obvious that someone is trying to pull one over on us, but in my experience, that is the exception rather than the rule.

So we're left to make some snap judgments -- do we show some compassion and risk enabling someone's addiction -- maybe even making things worse for them -- or rewarding a scammer? Do we refuse to enable the addict or reward the scammer and risk failing to show compassion to someone who truly needs it?

Things get even trickier when you have kids. How do I demonstrate to my kids the need to be careful and also the need to practice the values we are trying to teach them?

For me, at least, there are no easy answers.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The reality is that usually we don't really know. We can assume and guess, but we don't know for sure unless we actually take some time with the person, and even then can we know for sure? Occasionally it may be pretty obvious that someone is trying to pull one over on us, but in my experience, that is the exception rather than the rule.

I just don't think that's the case around here. What may be true in whatever big city you live in, OKC's homeless problem is still of a manageable size. The city does a decent job of managing the problem. The fact that an individual is standing in front of me and talking to me is testimony to the fact that they know help exists (they haven't died of starvation and they're within close proximity of the homeless shelter and related services, so it's a safe bet). If they're not of able body/mind, there are government programs which will provide them with food, money and shelter. Sure, the Rehnquist court said we can't pluck them off the streets and throw them into an institution, but these people still have the ability to self-commit or apply for treatment programs which are not at capacity. If they have the ability to walk around and beg, they have the ability to ask for help from someone who is actually set up to provide real help.

So we're left to make some snap judgments -- do we show some compassion and risk enabling someone's addiction -- maybe even making things worse for them -- or rewarding a scammer? Do we refuse to enable the addict or reward the scammer and risk failing to show compassion to someone who truly needs it?

Neither act is really compassionate. Giving money to the homeless is something which ultimately harms them (as I discussed above). Also, as you pointed out, the "homeless" I discussed above probably aren't actually even homeless.

Things get even trickier when you have kids. How do I demonstrate to my kids the need to be careful and also the need to practice the values we are trying to teach them?

That's a pretty easy one. It seems the benefit of teaching a valuable lesson would outweigh the harm it does to the "homeless" person. I personally don't care about that other person. I think younger kids would benefit from the lesson, but I think older kids would benefit more from a lesson about how things (and people) aren't always what they appear to be.

[MysticCat]

Kevin, 20 years ago I probably thought more like you do. Experience over those 20 years has brought me to a different place. I'm not saying you'll end up where I am when you've "learned better" -- that would be presumptuous of me. Just saying that my experience has led me to find that there's a lot of grey out there.

And I think you are quite right that just giving someone money is not necessarily compassionate. Making sure they have food certainly can be, though.

One thought though: Is "homeless" here being used to to refer to all homeless people -- including those who are working and trying to take advantage of programs that will really help them, or is it limited just to the those who beg on the streets? If it's the latter, then "beggars" might be the more accurate term. When I hear "homeless," I think not only of the beggars; I also think of the families that my church and other churches take turns providing shelter, food and transportation for, who are trying and working or going to school but who have nowhere to live. Perhaps confusion about which homeless people are the subject of this thread is what has brought on some of the more heated responses in this thread.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Or perhaps we consider it rude and immoral to beg? Perhaps it offends our moral decency that someone who we know could very well choose to take advantage of the vast resources available to them and have a better life (and does not) is invading our space requesting that we subsidize their life choice?

Perhaps we find it offensive that (as is the case with the man in the wheelchair who obviously didn't need it) these people have the mental wherewithall to stoop to deception in order to take advantage of peoples' charity so that they may make whatever living they do? I left out the fact that this occured downtown on St. Patrick's day -- you typically have a large population of people downtown for the parade who normally aren't downtown and normally do not see the same beggars on a daily basis (easy marks).

I'm not even sure these folks are homeless to be honest. They could very well be doing what they're doing as a way to earn easy money on the weekends. As inexpensive as the cost of living here is, to be actually homeless takes some serious effort.

Well, it does vary from city to city- I will grant you that. Here in Austin rents are so high and there is such a large supply of college students willing to work part or full time at a low wage, that it is very easy to find yourself homeless- even if you do have a job.

As for the rest, again I see your point- but the sad fact is that there are always droves of people willing to take advantage of an "easy road". For every panhandler who doesn't need it, there must be some homeless person who refuses to beg for change.

But I don't try to play detective anymore- God can sort us all out later, I am too busy to try and do his job too

If someone asks for money, if I have change on me and if I feel like giving it away- I will do so freely. It is not true charity if I try to judge the recipient in the process.

Your instinctive reaction of annoyance/disgust is one I know well. I feel the same sometimes. At some level I think it might be one of our versions of that natural reaction in any living creature to repel the weak of another species for a variety of reasons.

But don't let it make you crazy man. Where I live, you will find panhandlers on every major freeway intersection once you get out of the neighborhoods since the beggars know they can get lots of money up here, and if you hit the Drag over by campus you will get asked for money at least 3-4 times if you walk the full 8 blocks.

At some point you have to tune it out, but I do for the most part try to smile and say I have nothing to offer. It just seems to make the world colder to disregard them and pretend they do not exist. Feeling invisible must surely be one of the worst sides of having "fallen off the train".

[Kevin]

EE -- I think you are reading a lot into my feelings on the matter.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by Kevin

EE -- I think you are reading a lot into my feelings on the matter.

No offense dude, but you are the one with a 6 page thread on this and a reply to every post. It is hard not to assume that this is something you are really letting get to you.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's not a healthy choice, but someone who is on the street has already made an unhealthy choice to be and to remain on the street."

I half disagree on behalf of the schmedium population that did not choose to be/stay homeless.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't understand how that feeds the "decline of society."

I was being sarcastically dramatic to play up the second half of the msg.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

I half disagree on behalf of the schmedium population that did not choose to be/stay homeless.

Explain how it's not a choice for someone with an able body/mind.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Explain how it's not a choice for someone with an able body/mind.

I don't have to--not all homeless have an able body/mind. So, those are the ones who I will disagree on behalf of.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

I don't have to--not all homeless have an able body/mind. So, those are the ones who I will disagree on behalf of.

Then they're eligible for benefits.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Then they're eligible for benefits.

If you are not of sound mind, then there is a good chance you have no idea what you are eligible for and are not educated enough to even go find out. Instead, you may very well spend your days hiding, afraid of being locked up in a "crazy house" or walking up and down the streets talking to people no one else see, as do several homeless men who live in my neighborhood. They never ask a single person for change--in fact, I've never seen them speak to anyone who was visible. It's only these extreme cases who I'm referring to. As for the others, they can be debated about by the rest of the board.