Second Presidential Debate

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Is a right only a right if it's in the Constitution? Hmmm. After all, the Equal Rights Amendment was never passed, but I think most agree that women have rights equal to men.

I think most agree that women should have equal rights to men. I think many would disagree about whether they in fact do in all situations.

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Again, this is definitely an issue where we're all using a different definition of "right."

Legally, something is only a "right" if it is protected or guaranteed by government mandate. However, obviously there is a more 'colloquial' sense that is just as (if not more) important to most. Which one do we want the Presidential candidates to deal with? I'm not 100% sure I know how I feel, to be honest.

Agreed, and just to get a little more lawyerish about it, what lyrelyre said was:

Originally Posted by lyrelyre

It's worth noting that education is not a fundamental right. It is true that access to existing public education is protected. However, the Supreme Court has specifically stated that there is no fundamental right to education.

"Fundamental right" is a legal term of art; a fundamental right is a right that is derived, explicitly or implicitly, from the fundamental law of the land -- i.e., the federal Constitution or a state constitution.

Lyrelyre is quite correct that no fundamental right to education can be derived from the federal Constitution. My point was simply that such a fundamental right can be derived from some state constitutions.

[ThetaDancer]

www.fivethirtyeight.com is a site I really like, and I thought they had a pretty good post-debate post, plus some post-debate polls and recalculated projections, with several links that might be of interest.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ThetaDancer

www.fivethirtyeight.com is a site I really like, and I thought they had a pretty good post-debate post, plus some post-debate polls and recalculated projections, with several links that might be of interest.

I like that site as well. Nate Silver did an impressive job predicting what would happen in the Democratic primaries in Indiana and NC.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I like that site as well. Nate Silver did an impressive job predicting what would happen in the Democratic primaries in Indiana and NC.

Slightly off-topic, but Nate is also one of the best baseball statistical analysts out there. I first became aware of his work on Baseball Prospectus (www.baseballprospectus.com). If you're a baseball fan, you should definitely look up some of his stuff.

/end hijack

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Slightly off-topic, but Nate is also one of the best baseball statistical analysts out there. I first became aware of his work on Baseball Prospectus (www.baseballprospectus.com). If you're a baseball fan, you should definitely look up some of his stuff.

/end hijack

Not really off topic. His analysis at FiveThirtyEight.com is, as I understand it, based on his baseball statistical work.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Not really off topic. His analysis at FiveThirtyEight.com is, as I understand it, based on his baseball statistical work.

The best part of Silver's work is that his baseball work and political work are actually pretty different - conceptually, they're based on similarity modeling, but the implementation is pretty different (and actually, his political models are genius because they use pretty simple assumptions to come up with a sophisticated model, whereas PECOTA is a massive sprawling awesome mess).

The second best part? The Burrito Bracket. I'm a massive fan of the dude's work - very impressive, and I'm very jealous I didn't think of the 538 method first, even while upset that he hasn't written nearly as much on BP as a result. Definitely better than any of the MSM polling sources.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by ThetaDancer

www.fivethirtyeight.com is a site I really like, and I thought they had a pretty good post-debate post, plus some post-debate polls and recalculated projections, with several links that might be of interest.

...this is pretty much the first political site I read daily.

[CrackerBarrel]

McCain needs to take the advice of the conservative side of the media. Read the end of this article: http://spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=14019, it's not enough to say Obama's radical and talk about the economy separately, he needs to tie them together, and the suggested speech at the end of that article shows very well the kind of things he needs to be saying.

EVERY ONE OF THESE issues is an indicator of culture. Every one of them is an indicator that Obama himself can't possibly empathize with most of us as we struggle with an economic crisis, because he not only misunderstands how we feel and how we see the world but also has contempt for our very point of view.

"Look," McCain could say. "My friends, we have tough times ahead. But we will survive because Americans know how to pull together and because we know the value of hard work and voluntary community spirit, and because we have a native toughness. We will pull together not because some orator with a smooth, deep voice cites some pie-in-the-sky economic theory, but because we know how to roll up our sleeves, trust each other, and get the job done. My opponent doesn't share our faith in ourselves and our common culture. My opponent thinks bureaucrats in Washington know best. But we know better. My friends, we know better. We know that we don't need Washington to serve as a national community organizer pushing newfangled theories and taxing us to do it; we know that our communities can organize on our own, if only we use our common values to rebuild the real economy of real goods and real services.

"And when we go to church for sustenance, we won't be blaming our country or clinging to our religions out of bitterness. We'll be going there because we know that 'perseverance produces character, and character, hope, and hope does not disappoint us.'

"Hope does not disappoint us, because of our faith -- and because we are Americans."

[AGDee]

While that may solidify McCain's conservative base, it's not going to swing people over from Obama to McCain. Here is another paragraph from the article:

EVERY ONE OF THESE issues is an indicator of culture. Every one of them is an indicator that Obama himself can't possibly empathize with most of us as we struggle with an economic crisis, because he not only misunderstands how we feel and how we see the world but also has contempt for our very point of view.

See, some of us feel like Obama is FINALLY someone who can empathize with us and who FINALLY understands how we feel and sees the world from OUR point of view. That's why he feels like a breath of fresh air to us.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AGDee

While that may solidify McCain's conservative base, it's not going to swing people over from Obama to McCain. Here is another paragraph from the article:



See, some of us feel like Obama is FINALLY someone who can empathize with us and who FINALLY understands how we feel and sees the world from OUR point of view. That's why he feels like a breath of fresh air to us.

dang....please get out of my head.....LOL

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American....McCain can't say that...almos goes back to the argument...If you don't know how many houses you have...how can you be in touch with the man about to lose his ONE house?

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

dang....please get out of my head.....LOL

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American....McCain can't say that...almos goes back to the argument...If you don't know how many houses you have...how can you be in touch with the man about to lose his ONE house?

Ugh. I guess 'living' in a POW camp for 7 years isn't struggling. Poor baby, Obama, had to go to Harvard on financial aid. Maybe I'm just not seeing everything, but McCain has fought FOR EVERYONE both overseas and domestically. I see lots of arguments 'defending' Obam's positions on votes he's participated in (and most that he's abstained on http://www.opencongress.org/people/v...9_barack_obama all the way down to the debateability of his citizenship. I just don't get it. I live in NY (coming from TX, what a difference a liberal state makes), and I work in the financial services industry. I met with 3 separate clients last night, all professionals who are TERRIFIED if BO becomes president. Not everyone is clammoring for these 'changes' that Obama promises (although I believe it to be with fingers crossed behind his back!)

Look at the rest of the world right now. The US is starting to self-destruct itself with all the 'political correctedness' bullshit. While we're fumbling in the dark trying to get our shit together, do you think that Russia or even China aren't plotting to become the new super power.

I will be VERY surprised if (and I've said it before) Obama actually does something productive while in office, or doesn't send the entire population into a tailspin with all of his promises. I'm voting for McCain, because he also preaches that change is needed, but he doesn't propose doing it overnight, as is BO's MO. I think we need change too, but it needs to be gradual. It took us a LONG time to get to where things are now, the brakes just cannot effectively be slammed and 180ed. There is so much going on, that I prefer to have someone OLDER and more experienced helping to make those decisions. I really don't have the time to be chasing some young, wannabe all over the effing country trying to make sure I'll be okay...oh because he knows what it's like to struggle? I'm reading all the bios I can find, and I just don't see anything that really indicates a struggle.

I think it's great that everyone gets so involved in this election, because it is so important. I just get so worried about the rationale some people have for choosing Obama, as I'm sure that many of you have for us choosing McCain.

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Look at the rest of the world right now. The US is starting to self-destruct itself with all the 'political correctedness' bullshit. While we're fumbling in the dark trying to get our shit together, do you think that Russia or even China aren't plotting to become the new super power.

Political correctness is destroying the America?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Ugh. I guess 'living' in a POW camp for 7 years isn't struggling.

I'm guessing that when people talk about struggling in this context, they mean struggling to make a living. I'm also guessing that lots of voters think that someone who can't seem to remember how many houses he currently owns does not know what it's like for many American families today.

I have the utmost respect for John McCain for his military service and his time as a POW. (And it was 5+, not 7, years, but regardless.) I'm not sure though, that experience gives him particular insight into the everyday struggles of many Americans. And sometimes I tend to think it gives him a less than objective view of foreign policy.

I think it's great that everyone gets so involved in this election, because it is so important. I just get so worried about the rationale some people have for choosing Obama, as I'm sure that many of you have for us choosing McCain.

Very true, although just as you've qualified it by saying "some people have for choosing Obama," I'd qualify what you said about yourself by saying "some of us for choosing McCain." There are reasonable and unreasonable rationales for choosing either one.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

[AGDee]

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!