Christian terrorists hijack a plane

[greekalum]

Three people who lead groups of people. My point is, in terms of mainstream Christianity, they are a radical fringe group. They reflect mainstream Christianity as well as the islamic extremists reflect mainstream Islam.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by greekalum

Three people who lead groups of people. My point is, in terms of mainstream Christianity, they are a radical fringe group. They reflect mainstream Christianity as well as the islamic extremists reflect mainstream Islam.

Right!!

The tendency for people to say "oh, those Christians are the exception and not the rule" reflects the double standard. Muslim is one of the largest (if not the largest???) organized religions in the world. Yet, it has grown a reputation of being violent and anti-American based on a series of events from the past 5-10 years. People don't say "those Islamic extremists aren't the rule."

[shinerbock]

There are extremists for everything...however, I think you'd have a very difficult time showing that Christian extremists commit acts of violence even close to the level that islamic extremists do

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

There are extremists for everything...however, I think you'd have a very difficult time showing that Christian extremists commit acts of violence even close to the level that islamic extremists do

But violence is not the only standard. Think of corruption, of abuse, etc. Violence is just more in your face.

[blueangel]

I was wondering what blueangel was talking about. I couldn't find his/her Q'uran post anywhere in this thread.

Reposting this from the other thread for DSTChaos:

-------
I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Reposting this from the other thread for DSTChaos:

-------
I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

To comment on you, I'd like you to clarify the, well, the entire Old Testament that shows, explicitly or implicitly that it is ok to kill, rape and steal for land, just because you want it.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Reposting this from the other thread for DSTChaos:

-------
I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

Fight, onslaught, mutilate, plunder = literal or figurative? spiritual warfare or physical/actual warfare?

Any religious doctrine could be interpreted as intolerant and not peaceful. Christian doctrine says things like love thy neighbor (and so does the doctrine of other faiths...I believe the Q'uran has similar teachings) but Christianity isn't necessarily tolerant or peaceful toward 1) nonbelievers and 2) people with certain lifestyles. Depending on how Scripture is interpreted and what crazies get a hold of certain interpretations, we could see (even more) crazy Christians running around oppressing and killing people in the names of Jesus and God.

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Fight, onslaught, mutilate, plunder = literal or figurative? spiritual warfare or physical/actual warfare?

Any religious doctrine could be interpreted as intolerant and not peaceful. Christian doctrine says things like love thy neighbor (and so does the doctrine of other faiths...I believe the Q'uran has similar teachings) but Christianity isn't necessarily tolerant or peaceful toward 1) nonbelievers and 2) people with certain lifestyles. Depending on how Scripture is interpreted and what crazies get a hold of certain interpretations, we could see (even more) crazy Christians running around oppressing and killing people in the names of Jesus and God.

I agree with your point. Just look at the Christian extremists who bombed abortion clinics.

Many passages in the Bible.. both in the New and Old Testament can be interpreted many ways. That's why I was asking for an interpretation of these passages in the Q'uran.

But, could there possibly be a peaceful interpretation of the above quoted Q'uran passages? It seems to be all about "forcing" others to convert.. not about "witnessing" or "spreading the word."

[epchick]

Originally Posted by blueangel

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

Maybe you aren't understand correctly, but _Opi_ already said that she would not answer you, so please quit badgering her about answering your questions.

I'm going to say it, time and time again...if you want the answers to your question, actually go out, do some research, take a class, talk to a sheik (that's what they are called right?).

Besides, "fight" does not always mean "coming to blows" or any physical violence. For all we know, back when Mohammed said it, he could have meant something totally different.

Like others have mentioned, there are passages in the Bible that are pretty questionable now, but that is because we put our own little "twisted" spin on it.

Originally Posted by epchick

Maybe you aren't understand correctly, but _Opi_ already said that she would not answer you, so please quit badgering her about answering your questions.

Badgering. Wouldn't that be considered harassment?

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by epchick

Maybe you aren't understand correctly, but _Opi_ already said that she would not answer you, so please quit badgering her about answering your questions.

I'm going to say it, time and time again...if you want the answers to your question, actually go out, do some research, take a class, talk to a sheik (that's what they are called right?).

Besides, "fight" does not always mean "coming to blows" or any physical violence. For all we know, back when Mohammed said it, he could have meant something totally different.

Like others have mentioned, there are passages in the Bible that are pretty questionable now, but that is because we put our own little "twisted" spin on it.

Maybe YOU don't understand. I cut and pasted this from another thread for one of the posters who asked about it. I am not pressing Opi, because she has made it clear she will not answer my questions in detail.

And yes, I do agree that "fight" may not necessarily mean "come to blows" which is why I am asking for someone who is Muslim to clarify for me. So far, nobody has stepped up. Why? There never seems to be a shortage of Christians who are willing to clarify verses in the New Testament.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by blueangel

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Obviously, you wont pick up a hardcopy of the Quran yourself and you want the easy way out. Alright, let me break it down for you. Your first citation is "Qu'ran 39". This is not the right way to cite a verse from the holy book. You must have the chapter name or number and verse number. Example: Al-Baraqa 50. Al-Baraqa is the chapter name. 50 is the specific verse. Or you can write it like so..surah 2 (which is Al-Baraqa):50. There is no chapter in the Quran named Quran. Therefore the first quote you gave me wasINCORRECT.

Your second citation is "Ishaq:587". There is no chapter called "Ishaq". In fact, the closest sounding chapter is "Al-Ishiqaq". I thought this was a good-faith mistake until I looked at the verse #. 587. The longest chapter in the Quran is Al-Baraqa. It contains 286 verses. Let me repeat this in case you missed it. There is no chapter and no such verse in the Quran.

Now, I ran some searches on google to see where you might have gotten them and here are the top results:

First verse:

An acoustic guitar forum
Prophet of Doom (lol)
JihadWatch

Second verse:

Prophet of Doom
Jihad in Islam (understanding-Islam.com is a Christian website)
FaithFreedom


They cite those verse the same (incorrect) way. I can only assume you went to one of those sites to get your verses. Like I said, you're wasting your time and you have already wasted mine for making me type an essay.


Have a nice day

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Obviously, you wont pick up a hardcopy of the Quran yourself and you want the easy way out. Alright, let me break it down for you. Your first citation is "Qu'ran 39". This is not the right way to cite a verse from the holy book. You must have the chapter name or number and verse number. Example: Al-Baraqa 50. Al-Baraqa is the chapter name. 50 is the specific verse. Or you can write it like so..surah 2 (which is Al-Baraqa):50. There is no chapter in the Quran named Quran. Therefore the first quote you gave me wasINCORRECT.

Your second citation is "Ishaq:587". There is no chapter called "Ishaq". In fact, the closest sounding chapter is "Al-Ishiqaq". I thought this was a good-faith mistake until I looked at the verse #. 587. The longest chapter in the Quran is Al-Baraqa. It contains 286 verses. Let me repeat this in case you missed it. There is no chapter and no such verse in the Quran.

Now, I ran some searches on google to see where you might have gotten them and here are the top results:

First verse:

An acoustic guitar forum
Prophet of Doom (lol)
JihadWatch

Second verse:

Prophet of Doom
Jihad in Islam (understanding-Islam.com is a Christian website)
FaithFreedom


They cite those verse the same (incorrect) way. I can only assume you went to one of those sites to get your verses. Like I said, you're wasting your time and you have already wasted mine for making me type an essay.


Have a nice day

NICE.

_Opi_ I also found those same references in some Bob Jones University "educational material" that is kept at the theological centre here at UofT...

Oh... as for blueangel's 4% Fundamentalist stat... ummm what percentage of Christians would fall into the same bracket? Or didn't the 'study' mention that...

[blueangel]

Opi:

I'll go into more detail if you wish over the weekend, as I'll have more time for reading and to research your response. (sorry, it's the Astronaut in me that likes to really understand topics in detail)

I do not claim to be an expert on the Islamic faith. In my research, I found more on the quotes I asked you about. As you recall, I mentioned that things can be misinterpreted and taken out of context, which is why I requested your clarification since you say you are Muslim (or, as you recall.. I also asked anyone else to chime in) as you would know more about your faith than I.

As per your response...... you said:

Your first citation is "Qu'ran 39". This is not the right way to cite a verse from the holy book. You must have the chapter name or number and verse number. Example: Al-Baraqa 50. Al-Baraqa is the chapter name. 50 is the specific verse. Or you can write it like so..surah 2 (which is Al-Baraqa):50. There is no chapter in the Quran named Quran. Therefore the first quote you gave me wasINCORRECT.

Thank you for explaining that. So am I to understand that there is no such quote in the Qu'ran? Or do you mean it is just referenced incorrectly? This is why I was holding off on posting.. I am researching this more.

Your second citation is "Ishaq:587". There is no chapter called "Ishaq". In fact, the closest sounding chapter is "Al-Ishiqaq". I thought this was a good-faith mistake until I looked at the verse #. 587. The longest chapter in the Quran is Al-Baraqa. It contains 286 verses. Let me repeat this in case you missed it. There is no chapter and no such verse in the Quran

.

From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, (as I have explained that I'm still just learning about the Islamic religion, but was alarmed at the quotes I came across)... Ishaq:587 comes from Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah http://onlineislamicstore.com/b3828.html a biography which composes the account of Muhammad's life and the beginnings of the religion. Is that correct, or am I mistaken? I could very well be.

And finally, is it true Mohammed's final words to his disciples were, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

[shinerbock]

Yeah, but you're straying from terrorism to just general immoral acts. Nobody is molesting children because they are acting out their beliefs. Its a problem sure, but I don't think its directly related to Catholic faith.