Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[FSUZeta]

Did you have a chance to read the case files yet?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Originally Posted by MysticCat

....

[DrPhil]

I'm not familiar with the honorgal username but I don't think the person is trolling. This is one of many complex issues that spark discussion, debate, and emotions on both sides.

It goes back to what some of us said in the beginning of this thread: the investigation should be handled correctly by the school and law enforcement for the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator. It is all alleged until proven otherwise. Alleged physical acts against women and children are the few times people say "you're guilty because I said so 2 seconds ago" and I'm not okay with that. That is partly rooted in protecting victims and mostly rooted in societal views towards women and children. But when it comes to women who, unlike children, are legal adults, it is not unreasonable to process these alleged incidents without instantly demonizing the alleged victim or alleged perpetrator. Automatically believing a woman who claims sexual assault or rape is the opposite extreme of automatically discrediting her. Both sides are arguably rooted in aspects of gender inequality, patriarchy, and sexism. There is a more reasonable and realistic middle ground that neither equates (girlhood or) womanhood with victim nor liar.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I'm not familiar with the honorgal username but I don't think the person is trolling. This is one of many complex issues that spark discussion, debate, and emotions on both sides.

It goes back to what some of us said in the beginning of this thread: the investigation should be handled correctly by the school and law enforcement for the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator. It is all alleged until proven otherwise. Alleged physical acts against women and children are the few times people say "you're guilty because I said so 2 seconds ago" and I'm not okay with that. That is partly rooted in protecting victims and mostly rooted in societal views towards women and children. But when it comes to women who, unlike children, are legal adults, it is not unreasonable to process these alleged incidents without instantly demonizing the alleged victim or alleged perpetrator. Automatically believing a woman who claims sexual assault or rape is the opposite extreme of automatically discrediting her. Both sides are arguably rooted in aspects of gender inequality, patriarchy, and sexism. There is a more reasonable and realistic middle ground that neither equates (girlhood or) womanhood with victim nor liar.

Hey Dr. Phil. Definitely not a troll. I just have never posted much, but yes, this is an issue that hits some hot buttons for me. And I agree with much of what you are saying, but I will stand by my earlier statement that we don't know exactly how this was handled (or mishandled). This is especially true of the University, as they are bound by strict confidentiality laws. But I do know a hatchet job when I see one (the NYT article in particular and the media in general, in this case) and that's another hot button with me. I don't like the use of scapegoats.

You are asking for investigations to be handled correctly, and that there is a middle ground. I'm sure there is room for improvement, but my sense is that in the vast majority of these types of cases, no system will work. Which is why it burns me up that the campus activists and the media are almost exclusively focused on the process after the the fact. Because anything else is just victim blaming. (You know, like telling young co-eds that maybe they should think twice about getting blotto and climbing into bed naked with some guy they barely know). At the end of "the process" the girl is still violated, even if the University does everything by the book and with compassion to boot. Time to use some common sense. What you call gender inequality, I call gender differences. It's also known as biology.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

...I call gender differences. It's also known as biology.

No.

1. Gender differences are exaggerated.
2. Biological sex is biology. Gender is not.
3. There is nothing biological or innate about anything in your post.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No.

1. Gender differences are exaggerated.
2. Biological sex is biology. Gender is not.
3. There is nothing biological or innate about anything in your post.

The irony and hypocrisy of this faux rape crisis are entirely lost on you, I see. It would almost be funny if it didn't involve the actual well being of real young people.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

The irony and hypocrisy of this faux rape crisis are entirely lost on you, I see. It would almost be funny if it didn't involve the actual well being of real young people.

People need to stop randomly throwing "irony" and "hypocrisy" in sentences and pretending they are making a well-articulated point. Either explain what you are talking about or move on.

You think this boils down to gender differences and biology. I consider that a ridiculous unfounded assertion. Other than that, you did not disagree with anything I typed in this thread. Now what?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No.

1. Gender differences are exaggerated.
2. Biological sex is biology. Gender is not.
3. There is nothing biological or innate about anything in your post.

Like this is a well-articulated point?

Bottom line - those who are claiming that we have a crisis and that 20% or 25% of our female college students are being raped are playing political games.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I'm not familiar with the honorgal username but I don't think the person is trolling. This is one of many complex issues that spark discussion, debate, and emotions on both sides.

Okay, if you have the time and energy to discuss this with someone who thinks campus rape statistics are some kind of conspiracy that goes all the way to the president, be my guest.

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

I stand corrected-I should have said that I don't want to share my own opinion at this time, as it may appear biased.

And again I ask, have you read the case records?

I've already answered this question, and if you weren't here to defend FSU, you wouldn't have posted the links you did.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Like this is a well-articulated point?

Yes, this is not about gender differences and there is nothing biological about this.


What do you not understand about gender differences being exaggerated, biological sex is biological whereas gender is not biological, and there is nothing biological or innate about anything in your post (or this thread)?

Originally Posted by honorgal

Bottom line - those who are claiming that we have a crisis and that 20% or 25% of our female college students are being raped are playing political games.

What does this have to do with my posts? Do you actually understand my posts?

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Okay, if you have the time and energy to discuss this with someone who thinks campus rape statistics are some kind of conspiracy that goes all the way to the president, be my guest.

Misinformed on some key points? Yes. Troll? Probably not.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

What you call gender inequality, I call gender differences. It's also known as biology.

Okay, honorgal.

Back to your interpretation of data and campus safety, do you now understand the data and overall safety of college campuses? Does that help you to understand the data and this topic?

Speaking of campus safety, there are non-students who (live not too far from and therefore) target college campuses for robbery, burglary, and violence? Why? Because they know that despite every effort from campus police and public safety, college students (and some staff and faculty) are careless, shortsighted, and trusting. Can that factor into sexual assault and rape, that depends on the circumstances.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Okay, honorgal.

Back to your interpretation of data and campus safety, do you now understand the data and overall safety of college campuses? Does that help you to understand the data and this topic?

I understand enough to know that the risk isn't anything close to 1 in 5. Many parents wouldn't put their daughters in such a dangerous environment.

Speaking of campus safety, there are non-students who (live not too far from and therefore) target college campuses for robbery, burglary, and violence? Why? Because they know that despite every effort from campus police and public safety, college students (and some staff and faculty) are careless, shortsighted, and trusting. Can that factor into sexual assault and rape, that depends on the circumstances.

I disagree that they are making every effort. Not even close. They could very frankly tell young men and women the risks they run when they have drunken hookups. Instead, the major focus seems to be on the process schools will follow after the fact.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I understand enough to know that the risk isn't anything close to 1 in 5.

Then TELL US what it is.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Many parents wouldn't put their daughters in such a dangerous environment.

You have clearly never worked in college admissions or read the crime data for some of the most popular colleges in the country.

Originally Posted by honorgal

I disagree that they are making every effort. Not even close. They could very frankly tell young men and women the risks they run when they have drunken hookups. Instead, the major focus seems to be on the process schools will follow after the fact.

"Despite every effort" is a common phrase that does not mean that every possible effort has been attempted. No campus will ever attempt or accomplish every possible effort. There will always be issues with budget, student naysayers, staff naysayers, faculty naysayers, community naysayers, and parent naysayers.

For example, there are parents who do not want campus crime incidents published; who prefer to have campus safety without having actual sworn law enforcement; and who do not want their "children" to take college courses on campus safety, binge drinking, and safe and consensual sex. So, you see how it can be impossible to override the naysayers.

But, have you researched the campus police and public safety of most college campuses to see their efforts? Did you know that some colleges have campus safety programs, courses, and departments? Did you know that some college campuses require classes on binge drinking, sex, and other issues that impact college campuses?

[amIblue?]

honorgal, you state that the on campus rape statistics are "made up." What is your source for the "true" statistics? Show us the money, so to speak.