Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Like this is a well-articulated point?

Yes, this is not about gender differences and there is nothing biological about this.


What do you not understand about gender differences being exaggerated, biological sex is biological whereas gender is not biological, and there is nothing biological or innate about anything in your post (or this thread)?

Originally Posted by honorgal

Bottom line - those who are claiming that we have a crisis and that 20% or 25% of our female college students are being raped are playing political games.

What does this have to do with my posts? Do you actually understand my posts?

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Okay, if you have the time and energy to discuss this with someone who thinks campus rape statistics are some kind of conspiracy that goes all the way to the president, be my guest.

Misinformed on some key points? Yes. Troll? Probably not.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes, this is not about gender differences and there is nothing biological about this.

Get back to me when 20% of college males start complaining they are victims of rape.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Get back to me when 20% of college males start complaining they are victims of rape.

How does that make this about gender differences and biology? Do you know what gender differences and biology mean?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

How does that make this about gender differences and biology? Do you know what gender differences and biology mean?

Of course I do.

Men and women are having lots of boozy sex with each other on college campuses. This should be a good thing in the eyes of the campus feminists. And the men certainly aren't complaining. But some of the women are. Not only are they complaining, they are insisting that men have to change, become more chivalrous, treat women with the respect they deserve. It's almost comical. Almost. But keep telling us that we're pretty much the same.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Of course I do.

Men and women are having lots of boozy sex with each other on college campuses. This should be a good thing in the eyes of the campus feminists. And the men certainly aren't complaining. But some of the women are. Not only are they complaining, they are insisting that men have to change, become more chivalrous, treat women with the respect they deserve. It's almost comical. Almost. But keep telling us that we're pretty much the same.

Genius, that is gender inequality, patriarchy, and sexism like I said in my previous post.

That is not gender differences and biology. "Gender differences" means socially created differences between women and men. "Biology" means biological distinctions. Both gender differences and biological differences are exaggerated.

Gender inequality is about disparities like what you are typing about. Any form of difference isn't the problem. The problem is the origin and outcome of the differences.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Genius, that is gender inequality, patriarchy, and sexism like I said in my previous post.

That is not gender differences and biology. "Gender differences" means socially created differences between women and men. "Biology" means biological distinctions. Both gender differences and biological differences are exaggerated.

Gender inequality is about disparities like what you are typing about. Any form of difference isn't the problem. The problem is the origin and outcome of the differences.

Oh goody, you passed Gender Studies 101 with flying colors.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, Drew Sterrett and other college men like him are systematically being denied even a modicum of due process. And as we've been told ad nauseum for weeks, there are so many more victims who just haven't come forward yet. Wait til the college beauracacy really gets going on tackling this "crisis".

The ends always justifies the means though.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Oh goody, you passed Gender Studies 101 with flying colors.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, Drew Sterrett and other college men like him are systematically being denied even a modicum of due process. And as we've been told ad nauseum for weeks, there are so many more victims who just haven't come forward yet. Wait til the college beauracacy really gets going on tackling this "crisis".

The ends always justifies the means though.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Thank you for correcting my stupidity and teaching me something.

It took a few posts to get you here but you are quite welcome.

Perhaps you are a troll and DeltaBetaBaby had you figured out. You are typing to me about fairness to men and fairness to the accused perpetrator. That is what I have been typing about throughout this thread...you are late. Again, this back and forth between you and me came about because you unfoundedly believed this topic is about mere differences between genders and biological differences. You needed a Gender 101 course and now you are pretending you already knew all of that stuff. We wouldn't be having this discussion if you already knew this and didn't attempt to rebut my "gender inequality, sexism, and patriarchy" comment.

Originally Posted by honorgal

In fact, the authors of the survey claimed that an intoxicated person can't give consent to sexual contact. Whadaya know, I've been raped!!! What a crock.

You do know that concept did not originate with the authors of that survey, right?

General comment not in response to honorgal: I generally disagree that intoxicated (yet conscious) people cannot consent to sex and I believe that should be applied to women as well as men. However, since most sexual assaults and rapes are not random acts committed by strangers, there is potential for improvement when women and men focus on safety, reducing the celebration of risky behaviors, and ending "slut shaming".

Originally Posted by honorgal

Don't non-college women deserve protection? Why don't we throw out the constitution and due process for the non college men too?

ETA: College campuses are often a microcosm of society. There are similar dynamics outside of college campuses.

[FSUZeta]

DeltaBetaBaby [QUOTE}I've already answered this question, and if you weren't here to defend FSU, you wouldn't have posted the links you did.[/QUOTE]



Posting the case report is unbiased, factual information sharing. It is part of the information that was used to determine whether or not there was enough evidence for a criminal case. The State Attorney deemed there was not enough evidence.

I do not know enough about Title IX procedure to comment on whether or not FSU followed Title IX protocol or not. I had hoped to learn what other people around the country thought and on what their opinions were based. Accusing me of posting links in order to defend FSU is as accurate as if I had accused you of defending the accuser by posting articles from Jezebel and the NYT. I posted the analysis of the case report from Tomahawk Nation because it gave a brief synopsis of the over 240 pages of transcript, which I was afraid some people wouldn't take/have the time to read. I posted it with the caveat that it was biased.

Journalism (I do not equate Tomahawk Nation or Jezebel with journalism) has become less fact reporting without opinion, and more opinion sharing with facts used to support that opinion. I think that most of us can read the facts and form our own opinions. It's too bad the media doesn't seem to think so.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

Posting the case report is unbiased, factual information sharing. It is part of the information that was used to determine whether or not there was enough evidence for a criminal case. The State Attorney deemed there was not enough evidence.

I do not know enough about Title IX procedure to comment on whether or not FSU followed Title IX protocol or not. I had hoped to learn what other people around the country thought and on what their opinions were based. Accusing me of posting links in order to defend FSU is as accurate as if I had accused you of defending the accuser by posting articles from Jezebel and the NYT. I posted the analysis of the case report from Tomahawk Nation because it gave a brief synopsis of the over 240 pages of transcript, which I was afraid some people wouldn't take/have the time to read. I posted it with the caveat that it was biased.

Journalism (I do not equate Tomahawk Nation or Jezebel with journalism) has become less fact reporting without opinion, and more opinion sharing with facts used to support that opinion. I think that most of us can read the facts and form our own opinions. It's too bad the media doesn't seem to think so.

Even if you were a Title IX coordinator yourself you couldn't know if FSU followed procedures or not, in any specific case. It's a secretive and confidential process. FSU can't tell us what they did or didn't do. How convenient for those claiming they didn't follow procedures.

[honorgal]

This is an all too typical representation of what our college "rape crisis" looks like.

http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C422124157.PDF

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

Posting the case report is unbiased, factual information sharing. It is part of the information that was used to determine whether or not there was enough evidence for a criminal case. The State Attorney deemed there was not enough evidence.

I do not know enough about Title IX procedure to comment on whether or not FSU followed Title IX protocol or not. I had hoped to learn what other people around the country thought and on what their opinions were based. Accusing me of posting links in order to defend FSU is as accurate as if I had accused you of defending the accuser by posting articles from Jezebel and the NYT. I posted the analysis of the case report from Tomahawk Nation because it gave a brief synopsis of the over 240 pages of transcript, which I was afraid some people wouldn't take/have the time to read. I posted it with the caveat that it was biased.

Journalism (I do not equate Tomahawk Nation or Jezebel with journalism) has become less fact reporting without opinion, and more opinion sharing with facts used to support that opinion. I think that most of us can read the facts and form our own opinions. It's too bad the media doesn't seem to think so.

I find the second link you posted offensive and victim-blaming. This type of thing is exactly why women don't come forward when they've been raped. No matter what happened that night, she obviously walked away traumatized enough to go to the hospital and report to the PD, and for that, she gets torn apart, accused of lying, and her sexual history is up for public discussion? Not okay.

As for my thoughts on the case...the documents are interesting, but I am not an expert, and obviously seeing a written statement is not the same as interviewing a witness. So here are some initial impressions, but they come with that caveat:

1) The men involved read to me as disrespectful of women and female sexuality. Popping into someone's room to ask if you can have sex with her too is pretty sleazy. Does that make someone a rapist? Not necessarily, but it makes you a person who shares some qualities with rapists.

2) The men lied about part 1, and later admitted they had. Again, sleazy.

3) The woman's story is obviously confusing and changes from interview to interview. I am not going to try to guess whether that's a result of trauma, alcohol, or malice and/or how reliable or unreliable that makes her.

3a) If 3 can be attributed to alcohol alone, then she was too drunk to give consent.

4) I don't know the race of the accuser, but there is a long and sordid history in this country of white women accusing black men of sexual assault. That gives me pause on drawing conclusions.

5) No matter what actually happened, it is a problem that when the police went to FSU, they were intercepted by the athletic department, and that members of the athletic staff volunteered to act as representatives for the football players. That alone raises giant red flags and justifies further investigation by a disinterested party.