Is hazing the best way?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

He has the audacity to think he can tell Greekchat what to do, so he probably takes this approach with his NEW chapter (that is not even his chapter of initiation) and will probably fail miserably because of it.

This is HIS chapter of HIS organization and he's inadequate enough to need stranger nonmembers' advice. Yet HE thinks he can direct the conversation. Yeah I think he needs to contact his national headquarters and/or members from other chapters. They are the only ones who should care enough to help his chapter and help his chapter IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ORGANIZATION'S GUIDELINES.

Or he could keep asking here since plenty of people do appear to care enough to help him.

Also, although he objected to the inquiry, he also explained the details that people were asking for. Not outrageous audacity really.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Or he could keep asking here since plenty of people do appear to care enough to help him.

Also, although he objected to the inquiry, he also explained the details that people were asking for.

Did members of his organization not care enough to help him or did he not try?

Yeah...he explained those "unimportant details" that keep "sidetracking" GCers.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Did members of his organization not care enough to help him or did he not try?

Yeah...he explained those "unimportant details" that keep "sidetracking" GCers.

Oh no, I'm so offended. He appears to have exactly the amount of authority he claimed, and nothing more or less.

And I don't really care what he does with his organization, you do however appear to be the only one objecting to his inquiry here.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

I never went through hazing so the concept, though I knew it existed, it new to me

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

Team building exercises can be found online or at a university's leadership center. GLO specific information can come from members of other chapters of the OP's GLO.

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

Team building exercises can be found online or at a university's leadership center. GLO specific information can come from members of other chapters of the OP's GLO.

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

My guess is the difficulty, in any similar situation not just the OP's, is selling it to a previously hazing chapter. If they're still stuck on "but we went through it" and "must break them down and build them up" or whatever, it's much harder to sell anything that doesn't include those concepts. We know it's possible to have a pledge/NM period without hazing, and so does the OP, but the chapter has to learn that it's still 'ok.'

The OP's suggestions of 'toned down' activities (which were at least borderline hazing by most standards) suggest that the hazing was pretty strong and that the chapter doesn't want to let it go.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

Team building exercises can be found online or at a university's leadership center. GLO specific information can come from members of other chapters of the OP's GLO.

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

I agree. Perhaps his own non-hazing program wasn't adequate enough to use in its entirety or to take parts of. In that case, I wonder what it is about his opinions and his experiences that led them to give him the "authority."

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

The bottom line is that what works for other fraternities and sororities and even among different chapters of the same organization, might not work for your chapter.

We each have different ideals, chapter history, and ways of doing things. I would gather that no two pledge programs are exactly the same, even in the strictest I/National organization.

This is really something that you need to discuss with members and advisers of YOUR chapter. There really isn't much we, the general population of GC can tell you in terms of what will work for your chapter. Create a committee of older and newer actives. Poll all members on what worked well during their pledge period, and what didn't, and why. You can do it anonymously so that people don't worry about towing a different line.

I agree that he needs to do the things that you suggest. But I fail to see how nothing can be learned from what other chapters do. I fail to see why it's so terrible to at least look at things have worked in other chapters and them evaluate whether those things, or something inspired by those things, would work in his chapter.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is HIS chapter of HIS organization and he's inadequate enough to need stranger nonmembers' advice. Yet HE thinks he can direct the conversation. Yeah I think he needs to contact his national headquarters and/or members from other chapters. They are the only ones who should care enough to help his chapter and help his chapter IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ORGANIZATION'S GUIDELINES.

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

. . .

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing -- something he doesn't have personal experience with because his chapter of initiation was already non-hazing.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Uh huh and that can be said for 90% of the threads on GC in which people express general opinions that are specifically based on their organization.

The OP shouldn't be on GC typing to nonmembers if he only wants responses that cater to his organization. And the OP asked about others' intake experiences so he certainly wanted nonmembers' opinions and what was done in other organizations to potentially apply. What he asked for doesn't conveniently go away just because I'm applying my organizational experiences differently than the OP intended.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

And, for the sake of redundancy, I do see something wrong with it.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing.

If that's what he specifically requested, I hope people are careful if they share their stories. I wonder if some of his fraternity brothers that he spoke to outside of GC have been more detailed about their experiences.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

huh and that can be said for 90% of the threads on GC in which people express general opinions that are specifically based on their organization.

The OP shouldn't be on GC typing to nonmembers if he only wants responses that cater to his organization. And the OP asked about others' intake experiences so he certainly wanted nonmembers' opinions and what was done in other organizations to potentially apply. What he asked for doesn't conveniently go away just because I'm applying my organizational experiences differently than the OP intended.

Of course it can be said of most of the threads and posts here. That's beside the point. The point I'm making is that it serves no purpose to apply the standards or practices of our own organization to someone else unless that other person's org shares those standards or policies.

I just see no reason for criticizing the guy just because a member of your org wouldn't or shouldn't ask a similar question.

And, for the sake of redundancy, I do see something wrong with it.

Obviously. And for equal redundancy, I see nothing with the question, but I do see something wrong with holding a poster to the standards of an organization of which he's not a member.

Because I know how much you love the phrase, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree that he needs to do the things that you suggest. But I fail to see how nothing can be learned from what other chapters do. I fail to see why it's so terrible to at least look at things have worked in other chapters and them evaluate whether those things, or something inspired by those things, would work in his chapter.

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing -- something he doesn't have personal experience with because his chapter of initiation was already non-hazing.

I think it might be a problem for the OP because it seems that he has failed to talk to many others in his chapter, his advisers, alumni, or HQ, instead choosing to look for ideas from anonymous people. Another person's activity idea may be great, but the execution might be entirely different for so many reasons, based on chapter/campus history, culture, fraternity rules, etc. He can get 100 great ideas, but they exist only in a vacuum, devoid of context. Not to mention discussing the pledge program with non-members.

I think that the "what to do" isn't as important here as "how we do it".

For example, I know of several chapters who (back in my day), had pledge classes sleeping in a certain place during H/I wee (whatever you call now). (We didn't have houses, but upperclassmen did live in on-campus apartments.)

Let's assume we are back in that time when "sleepovers" were not considered hazing in and of themselves. Depending on how you executed the "mandate", you can either be doing a lot of harm or a lot of good. For example, not allowing or controlling their sleep, eat, time to do homework, ability to shower, etc. is very different than having the class cook meals and eat together, plan and execute a service project, make a paddle or gift for the chapter room/house, study together, etc.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree that he needs to do the things that you suggest. But I fail to see how nothing can be learned from what other chapters do. I fail to see why it's so terrible to at least look at things have worked in other chapters and them evaluate whether those things, or something inspired by those things, would work in his chapter.

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing -- something he doesn't have personal experience with because his chapter of initiation was already non-hazing.

Some of us have strict national guidelines about discussing our Intake process period, much less on a public message board. For those who don't go for it. I am sure a non-greek would find it very interesting reading.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

After transferring in and talking at the brothers, some of the members realized I had a serious Napoleon complex.

I was elected, by the chapter, to the role of what some would consider "pledge master" in hopes that they could get nationals off their jock* and go get a beer.

Enough of the chapter is burned out and doesn't give a shit that they fed my ego and pretended they were honoring me by giving me a position which no one else wants.

Fixed your post for you.

In all seriousness, that is the ONLY situation in which I have ever heard of a fraternity (or a sorority for that matter) giving someone who's just transferred in such an important position. Look for them all to go alumni sooner rather than later and do nothing other than come around to drink...while you're stuck holding the bag.

*Dammit Senusret, ever since you said that the other day, I've been using it constantly, and it's really not pertinent for a girl.

[djpsk21]

Just because this is the ONLY situation you have ever HEARD of does not make it that crazy. Are you someone who has traveled the world and is in contact with the thousands of Greek organizations around the country? There is a first for everything and I guess this is a first for you.

I was shocked to see the revision of my post as you couldn't be further from the truth. But, you are entitled to your opinion...it just saddens me that you can't see what an amazing opportunity this is, not just for my chapter, but for other Greeks that may stumble across this post.

I have NEVER HEARD of a pledge process that was "secret" as rarely are the weeks prior to Initiation a part of a ritual...rather something from a National Organization or something the local chapter has created for their members.

But, as you mentioned earlier, this may be out of your "territory"...

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Fixed your post for you.

In all seriousness, that is the ONLY situation in which I have ever heard of a fraternity (or a sorority for that matter) giving someone who's just transferred in such an important position. Look for them all to go alumni sooner rather than later and do nothing other than come around to drink...while you're stuck holding the bag.

*Dammit Senusret, ever since you said that the other day, I've been using it constantly, and it's really not pertinent for a girl.

I don't remember saying anything like that. LOL

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

In all honesty, too many people posting are focusing on the minute details instead of answering the overarching question being asked. I don't feel I have to really explain my position because in all honesty, it shouldn't make a difference. I am trying to help my chapter change to become more risk adverse and create a more positive atmosphere....

Your position does make a difference- and a significant one. It is not about what you are trying to achieve, but about your powers to achieve it- both express and implied. You have a lofty goal to achieve- the degree to which you can force aspects of that versus have to win people over is critical to a successful approach. If you were an alumnus of the chapter with big money to donate, your methodology for achieving your goal would be quite different.

From the rest of your post- here is my take on your position.

First- you do not have the express power to do anything. Everything you seek to change will be 100% dependent on the acceptance of the brotherhood since you do not have any kind of authoritative or financial power to force change.

Second- from what you post, your implied power is quite significant. The chapter has taken you in as a transfer from a chapter with a very different approach to pledge education and given you a pledge education role. This is a great vote of confidence in you. Rush/pledge and social officerships are where things really happen for a chapter. Take pride in achieving such a role as a transfer, and approach it with a bit more objectivity and humility.

If you are looking for specific examples or pledgeship programs that are "no hazing" and successful- this is an impossible question to answer. See my earlier post asking you to define hazing. It differs everywhere, and this is not a black and white question. Someone may give you a cookie-cutter program all ready to go, but odds are it will not work. You have stepped up to the plate, and now you need to do the work to improve your specific chapter at this specific point in time with initiatives you have developed to address the guys you face at chapter meeting every week.

Let me please suggest you instead consider the following (and you do not need to necessarily answer publicly),

1. What do you consider to be negative hazing? Consider the key areas of learning lore, getting pledges to respect the brotherhood, getting pledges to "earn" their initiation, getting pledges to make good grades and also how the rush process can find quality men to eliminate the need to haze to weed out those who should not go through.

2. Make a list of the ten things about your previous chapter that you like which do not exist at your current chapter. Include everything- not just pledgeship practices. Give this serious thought. It should take you a week to really think this out.

3. Make a list of the ten things about your current chapter that you like and think improve on your previous chapter OR which are the same as for your previous chapter. As with #2- include everything, not just pledge training. And same time frame applies.

4. Compare the lists and see what you think. If you can find some common areas of agreement in the general brotherhood- then you have something to build on. If not, then do yourself a favor and walk away.

5. If, in #4, you can find some value in the active membership of your current chapter that you also found in your previous chapter, make a brief list of what you think your current chapter is doing right to achieve that end plus where they could make things better. Be specific and again- give yourself a few days or a week to think about it carefully.

6. Be realistic about the fact you will be in office for a year guaranteed- maybe more- and that you will be graduating in 2-3 years and have to trust your legacy to someone else. You will not be able to change everything overnight. And any changes you successfully make will carry through to the character of the brotherhood in general as pledges get initiated.

7. Given all of this, make a list of the five most important SPECIFIC things you want to change about pledgeship. From those five, pick the most important thing- be it study hours or setting a specific boundary on some aspect of the pledgeship process. Then pick your top 3. From there you have the bottom 2.

8. Figure out what you need to do in order to get #1 accepted, and same with the top three, and also all five. Evaluate your odds of getting #1, top 3 or all 5 changed.

9. Move forward with the plan you think best in light of the time and interest you have to offer and the chapter support you think you will get. The former is very important. If you go in trying to change more than you can effectively change and then quit when it does not happen-then the chapter would have been better off if you had never come along at all.

This is why our question about your role and granted powers was important. You have accepted a noble task, but not an easy one. Just as effective change on your part can have a huge positive impact, so can ineffective attempts at change have a hugely negative impact.

You are in a position to be either the establisher of great positive change at your chapter or the person who helped make things even worse than you think they are now. The actives have given you this power. Remember that. Each and every one of them deserves your respect for putting the chapter's future in your hands with such a key position for someone who is currently something of an outsider.