Is hazing the best way?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

And this gets us back to drawing board of why threads like this are pointless. Members need to be concerned with their GLO's and school's policies and procedures and not with what GCers think.

I don't think they're pointless in that, if the fraternity structure doesn't require strict adherence to a national model with no local modification, it's fine to look to chapters of other orgs for ideas. Somebody might have a great idea that no one in your organization or on your campus has thought of yet.

But seeking out these additional ideas should be in addition to, not in place of, looking to what the national fraternity offers and requires.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't think they're pointless in that, if the fraternity structure doesn't require strict adherence to a national model with no local modification, it's fine to look to chapters of other orgs for ideas. Somebody might have a great idea that no one in your organization or on your campus has thought of yet.

But seeking out these additional ideas should be in addition to, not in place of, looking to what the national fraternity offers and requires.

If he may not have the authority to make changes or he's possibly reinventing the wheel, this is all very pointless until he figures that part out. That includes how hazing is defined for his fraternity instead of being concerned with what nonmembers think.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If he may not have the authority to make changes or he's possibly reinventing the wheel, this is all very pointless until he figures that part out.

With regard to not having authority (whether by position or influence) to make changes, that seems to be an assumption on the part of readers. As to reinventing the wheel, that's why I said looking at what other chapters are doing is in addition to becoming familiar with and using national fraternity resources.

I just don't think asking the question is as big a no-no as you do.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

With regard to not having authority (whether by position or influence) to make changes, that seems to be an assumption on the part of readers.

I said "may not," meaning only he knows or needs to figure out whether that is the case.

I think asking for assistance from nonmembers (via GC or elsewhere) is a no no because it is sometimes not done "in addition to" and, frankly, I can't think of anything nonmembers could tell me about chapter operations and the specifics of hazing that members from (my chapter and) other chapters could not. Perhaps that's just how I was "raised."

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I can't think of anything nonmembers could tell me about chapter operations and the specifics of hazing that members from (my chapter and) other chapters could not. Perhaps that's just how I was "raised."

Pretty much.

My HQ came up with policies and procedures for my GLO's members to follow. It doesn't do me any good to look for "new" rules when there's already something in place.

And, like you said, if it really came to it, I could ask members from other chapters within my organization. There's no need to seek help from outsiders when it comes to intake/pledging/whatever your group calls it.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Pretty much.

My HQ came up with policies and procedures for my GLO's members to follow. It doesn't do me any good to look for "new" rules when there's already something in place.

To be clear, I'd never suggest anyone look anywhere other than their own GLO (or school) for rules, policies or procedures.

I don't see a problem with asking, in person or on GC, about activities that other chapters of any GLO have found useful or meaningful, and then evaluating those ideas in light of the rules, policies and procedures of one's own GLO and the personality of one's own chapter.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't see a problem with asking, in person or on GC, about activities that other chapters of any GLO have found useful or meaningful, and then evaluating those ideas in light of the rules, policies and procedures of one's own GLO and the personality of one's own chapter.

Better yet, start with chapters of your own GLO that are likely to already be in line with national initiatives, policies, and procedures.

[djpsk21]

Again, thank you for all the comments and please keep them coming (everyone). You are right...I am new to this and clearly do not have a lot of direction but I am trying to go from a broad view right now to take in as many ideas as possible and move it to a more narrow and concise view.

I would LOVE to hear what others have experienced during their "pledgeship" that was useful, and more importantly, meaningful.

I am already contacting my chapters across the country, especially the ones that continue to excel without hazing and pulling ideas from them. Again, i will say, I have presented this on GC because I am looking to learn as much as possible and gather as many ideas as possible so I can work to create a program that works for this chapter.

I have the authority to make changes as I have been entrusted by my chapter with this authority. I do not want to "rail road" the chapter with a new reform, rather present new and fresh ideas in such a way that they will agree with them. Sure, I could "force" the idea's, but I would rather SELL the idea...I have asked them to start thinking of new ideas and they are...slowly but surely. They just don't know what to replace the current system with because its all they know.

The chapter is willing and ready to see change. I am trying to help them build a program from scratch which is why I am seeking help from everywhere I can think of. I have already contacted our Nationals and have began a discussion with them. Rather than just talk with them to develop ideas, I would like to also present them with ideas and learn WHY it would or would not work.

So, that being said...what activities or events have you been a part of that have been meaningful? Maybe not just in your chapter, but in a team building exercise in your job for example?

Or when you were in college, maybe you did something OUTSIDE Greek life that was useful or meaningful where you learned to work together with you peers.

Thoughts?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Better yet, start with chapters of your own GLO that are likely to already be in line with national initiatives, policies, and procedures.

On this I agree with you. Where I cannot agree is in saying that, just because the best route is to ask within one's own GLO, asking the question on GC is "completely pointless."

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

On this I agree with you. Where I cannot agree is in saying that, just because the best route is to ask within one's own GLO, asking the question on GC is "completely pointless."

I agree. And I think, unfortunately, it's probably easier to get a response on GC even from your own brothers/sisters then try and get a response from people in other chapters through email or facebook. Having a private forum/message board/etc would help if it's used.

I see nothing wrong with using all your resources.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

Again, thank you for all the comments and please keep them coming (everyone). You are right...I am new to this and clearly do not have a lot of direction but I am trying to go from a broad view right now to take in as many ideas as possible and move it to a more narrow and concise view.

I would LOVE to hear what others have experienced during their "pledgeship" that was useful, and more importantly, meaningful.

I am already contacting my chapters across the country, especially the ones that continue to excel without hazing and pulling ideas from them. Again, i will say, I have presented this on GC because I am looking to learn as much as possible and gather as many ideas as possible so I can work to create a program that works for this chapter.

I have the authority to make changes as I have been entrusted by my chapter with this authority. I do not want to "rail road" the chapter with a new reform, rather present new and fresh ideas in such a way that they will agree with them. Sure, I could "force" the idea's, but I would rather SELL the idea...I have asked them to start thinking of new ideas and they are...slowly but surely. They just don't know what to replace the current system with because its all they know.

The chapter is willing and ready to see change. I am trying to help them build a program from scratch which is why I am seeking help from everywhere I can think of. I have already contacted our Nationals and have began a discussion with them. Rather than just talk with them to develop ideas, I would like to also present them with ideas and learn WHY it would or would not work.

So, that being said...what activities or events have you been a part of that have been meaningful? Maybe not just in your chapter, but in a team building exercise in your job for example?

Or when you were in college, maybe you did something OUTSIDE Greek life that was useful or meaningful where you learned to work together with you peers.

Thoughts?

For curiosity's sake, how long have you been in this chapter?

Do you hold a position and if so, what is it (you don't have to give the formal name if it outs you)?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Where I cannot agree is in saying that, just because the best route is to ask within one's own GLO, asking the question on GC is "completely pointless."

That's fine. I just hope he isn't in an NPHC fraternity.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And I think, unfortunately, it's probably easier to get a response on GC even from your own brothers/sisters then try and get a response from people in other chapters through email or facebook.

I completely disagree and a Soror betnot ever come to GC asking such questions and using that as an excuse.

But why are email/facebook/fraternity message board/private forum the only options other than GC? Before the prevalence of the Internet we visited other campuses and they came to our campus. People talked to each other and exchanged phone numbers. I could see if there are no chapters in a driving distance. If there are chapters in a driving distance, why is the Internet seen as the only tool of communication?

Finding the websites for chapters in your area and contacting (emailing) the chapters makes much more sense than coming to GC as a first resort. Then again, that's just how I was "raised."

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's fine. I just hope he isn't in an NPHC fraternity.




I completely disagree and a Soror betnot ever come to GC asking such questions and using that as an excuse.

But why are email/facebook/fraternity message board/private forum the only options other than GC? Before the prevalence of the Internet we visited other campuses and they came to our campus. People talked to each other and exchanged phone numbers. I could see if there are no chapters in a driving distance. If there are chapters in a driving distance, why is the Internet seen as the only tool of communication?

Finding the websites for chapters in your area and contacting (emailing) the chapters makes much more sense than coming to GC as a first resort. Then again, that's just how I was "raised."

Because most people don't list their phones online, and while your chapter may have been different, I don't know anyone that visited other chapters on a regular basis except the fraternities that visited one other house once a year as part of pledge week. If I need to get in touch with another member I'd look them up in our online directory and work from there. I'm probably not writing a letter.

The officers had training and such, but the average member didn't get around. Driving distance varies in definition, many students don't have cars, no chapters near to your hometown, etc.

Obviously to all involved, your org, and probably fair to say D9 orgs in general look at it differently, but you're trying awfully hard to impose that perspective as a universality. And yes, some of it is probably "how you were raised" but that's not true for everyone.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Because most people don't list their phones online, and while your chapter may have been different, I don't know anyone that visited other chapters on a regular basis except the fraternities that visited one other house once a year as part of pledge week.

It wasn't just my chapter. Regularly or semi-regularly visiting other collegiate chapters and keeping in touch with members from other collegiates was considered the norm. I won't assume this is just an NPHC thing until I'm told that it is just an NPHC thing.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Obviously to all involved, your org, and probably fair to say D9 orgs in general look at it differently.

Okay, then it is just an NPHC thing?

I'm not attempting a universality and I hope you weren't either when you typed "and I think, unfortunately, it's probably easier to get a response on GC even from your own brothers/sisters than try and get a response from people in other chapters through email or facebook." This OP didn't specify what fraternity he is so I am sharing my opinions based on the info provided.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

I have the authority to make changes as I have been entrusted by my chapter with this authority.

Wow- whole new can of worms here, as is your disclosure that you have transferred into this chapter.

ree-Xi and Dr. Phil are raising some very legitimate concerns.

Bringing about change in a chapter where you were initiated while you are an active member is one thing (and it is what I assumed from your earlier posts.)

Bringing about change in a chapter where you were not initiated is another matter and far more difficult if you have come into a chapter that feels it is doing okay as is.

If you have been granted specific powers to force change at a chapter where you are not an initiate- I can only presume you are doing so under express authority granted by your national office, or by alumni of that particular chapter with the blessing of the national office.

This changes things entirely- and Dr. Phil's comments are spot on if this is the case. If you have been given the authority to make changes- then your primary loyalty must be with those who gave you that authority, and it stands to reason that must be nationals or alumni with national support.

If you are seeking ideas on how to execute the mandate you have received- let me please suggest taking this to PM and not having an open discussion on Greek Chat where you disclose specifics. I do not like, as a general rule, to propose discourse be kept off site that could be useful to others to read- but if I am reading this right you are in a position where more discreet inquiries and guidance are of greater importance.

Please PM me if you would like to discuss further, or I will be happy to comment if you prefer to speak openly. If you opt for the latter, please do disclose your status with your current chapter and precisely who granted you the authority to initiate change as this will have a profound impact on the context and value of the advice you receive.