International Adoption

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That want doesn't really answer my question so I'll expand my question.

Why do people adopt interracially and internationally if they have no point of reference for that race and ethnicity or nationality, and do not plan on changing that in order to educate the child.

Probably the same reason they say they're colorblind. I think they just don't think about it. Or they just have no concept of the issues that could come up, even if it's something as (seemingly) simple as doing their daughter's hair.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Probably the same reason they say they're colorblind. I think they just don't think about it. Or they just have no concept of the issues that could come up, even if it's something as (seemingly) simple as doing their daughter's hair.

Makes sense and we've pretty much discussed that in threads over the years.

Since the majority of these adoptive parents are white Americans, those who don't know need to know that whiteness and Americanness aren't the norm, aren't generic, and aren't invisible. They are very much socialized into whiteness/as whites and into Americanness/as Americans.

They can choose to challenge these constructions of race and ethnicity and nationality. But they can't do that if they are going to intentionally or unintentionally socialize the children into whiteness and Americanness. While these parents may pretend that they are generically being good parents, the kids discover early on how they have a difficult time relating to those who "look like them."

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Makes sense and we've pretty much discussed that in threads over the years.

Since the majority of these adoptive parents are white Americans, those who don't know need to know that whiteness and Americanness aren't the norm, aren't generic, and aren't invisible. They are very much socialized into whiteness/as whites and into Americanness/as Americans.

They can choose to challenge these constructions of race and ethnicity and nationality. But they can't do that if they are going to intentionally or unintentionally socialize the children into whiteness and Americanness. While these parents may pretend that they are generically being good parents, the kids discover early on how they have a difficult time relating to those who "look like them."

Yep, we're on the same page. I think most of these parents mean well and learn, perhaps after some missteps. But it's the oblivion of someone who doesn't have to think about the things their kid will every day. See the story about the Sesame Street writer who didn't realize that it wasn't just his adopted daughter who wanted her hair to look like Barbie. NPR with the Sesame Street video in the story.

Adoption's complicated for a lot of reasons. I see a lot of reasons to foster and to adopt an older child through the foster system rather than to go infant hunting. (And not just because there are many older children who need homes, but that's good too.)

[Leslie Anne]

I knew this thread would get pissy if I posted in it....which is why I hesitated for a few days.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I knew this thread would get pissy if I posted in it....which is why I hesitated for a few days.

Where is the pissiness?

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yep, we're on the same page. I think most of these parents mean well and learn, perhaps after some missteps. But it's the oblivion of someone who doesn't have to think about the things their kid will every day. See the story about the Sesame Street writer who didn't realize that it wasn't just his adopted daughter who wanted her hair to look like Barbie. NPR with the Sesame Street video in the story.

Adoption's complicated for a lot of reasons. I see a lot of reasons to foster and to adopt an older child through the foster system rather than to go infant hunting. (And not just because there are many older children who need homes, but that's good too.)

With things in my life I'm kind of accepting that I'm probably not getting married and having biological kids, and though my privileged white background will allow me to adopt internationally or afford treatments and/or a sperm bank, I'm really leaning towards being a foster parent. Where I plan to live because of the work I do (Alaska) I'm more likely to foster kids who are Alaska Native, but I'm also planning to be a foster parent for GLBTQ kids as I think that is another group of kids who are in need of safe places to live and thrive. The way things are looking I may be sharing a large home or property with various buildings with my family, and maybe even my best friend so my nephew will be able to have siblings/cousins. I am so fortunate I have been in situations and have family members and friends that put me outside of my white, christian, privileged, hetero-normative background that I need to use everything I have to be there for kids who have no one.

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I knew this thread would get pissy if I posted in it....which is why I hesitated for a few days.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Where is the pissiness?

Probably what I said about babies and not wanting older kids. I don't think anyone is the devil for adopting outside the US, but DrPhil said some of what I was thinking. I know those kids are going to get adopted so I'm hoping we can start getting people interested in foster care, whether or not it leads to adoption. I really think that people like me in background (see above) aren't encouraged to be foster parents, nor are other people who have resources but not knowledge. Adopting from Russia or former Soviet countries where children are viewed as "white" is different than from places where the children have different noticeable physical characteristics, and the ability to physically blend and see similarities with parents and other family members may cause less issues.

I have friends who have adopted internationally, I have worked for a family who adopted all of their children from Korea, am I happy for them? Hell yes, and I babysit and support them, but I will do what I can to help kids here as well. It isn't an either or, but the system has to change somehow and I know the kids abroad will be adopted, but I want the kids here to not be victims and miss out as well.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Two places:

1) Leslie Anne's inability to read.
2) Leslie Anne's overall fear of this topic which illustrates what is embedded in the points we're making.

Go fuck yourself.

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

Probably what I said about babies and not wanting older kids. I don't think anyone is the devil for adopting outside the US, but DrPhil said some of what I was thinking. I know those kids are going to get adopted so I'm hoping we can start getting people interested in foster care, whether or not it leads to adoption. I really think that people like me in background (see above) aren't It isn't an either or, but the system has to change somehow and I know the kids abroad will be adopted, but I want the kids here to not be victims and miss out as well.

Not necessarily. The baby my sister adopted is Gypsy. In Russia Gypsies are considered to be an entirely different ethnicity and an undesirable one at that. She was available for adoption by Russians for several months but no one wanted her. At her court hearing, my sister was asked repeatedly if she was sure that she really wanted to adopt a Gypsy baby.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

With things in my life I'm kind of accepting that I'm probably not getting married and having biological kids, and though my privileged white background will allow me to adopt internationally or afford treatments and/or a sperm bank, I'm really leaning towards being a foster parent. Where I plan to live because of the work I do (Alaska) I'm more likely to foster kids who are Alaska Native, but I'm also planning to be a foster parent for GLBTQ kids as I think that is another group of kids who are in need of safe places to live and thrive. The way things are looking I may be sharing a large home or property with various buildings with my family, and maybe even my best friend so my nephew will be able to have siblings/cousins. I am so fortunate I have been in situations and have family members and friends that put me outside of my white, christian, privileged, hetero-normative background that I need to use everything I have to be there for kids who have no one.


Probably what I said about babies and not wanting older kids. I don't think anyone is the devil for adopting outside the US, but DrPhil said some of what I was thinking. I know those kids are going to get adopted so I'm hoping we can start getting people interested in foster care, whether or not it leads to adoption. I really think that people like me in background (see above) aren't encouraged to be foster parents, nor are other people who have resources but not knowledge. Adopting from Russia or former Soviet countries where children are viewed as "white" is different than from places where the children have different noticeable physical characteristics, and the ability to physically blend and see similarities with parents and other family members may cause less issues.

I have friends who have adopted internationally, I have worked for a family who adopted all of their children from Korea, am I happy for them? Hell yes, and I babysit and support them, but I will do what I can to help kids here as well. It isn't an either or, but the system has to change somehow and I know the kids abroad will be adopted, but I want the kids here to not be victims and miss out as well.

Thanks for sharing your really interesting perspective. There are different approaches to this topic and I'm interested to see why people feel as they do.

I don't see how what you said about internationally adopting babies was "pissy." Isn't it true? Doesn't domestic adoption lend itself more to adopting older kids? People who are looking for a more "clean slate" would want to adopt babies and perhaps do so internationally.

(Of course, my question had more to do with why some parents felt the "clean slate" can't be filled with an understanding and appreciation for race and ethnicity, culture, and nationality. )

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Go fuck yourself.



Not necessarily. The baby my sister adopted is Gypsy. In Russia Gypsies are considered to be an entirely different ethnicity and an undesirable one at that. She was available for adoption by Russians for several months but no one wanted her. At her court hearing, my sister was asked repeatedly if she was sure that she really wanted to adopt a Gypsy baby.

I'm glad your sister persevered and was able to bring your niece home even though where she came from has their own issues with race and ethnicity. Let me be a bit more clear and say that there are far more people in the US willing to adopt babies from overseas and that it won't work out for every child, and Russia definitely has issues with their own adoption/foster system that are endemic to their countries.

I'm not saying stop adopting kids from overseas, I'm saying that we can do both here. A family I babysat for adopted internationally and was a foster parent to children from that same ethnicity/nationality who ended up needing a home. They eventually adopted the foster children and I know that part of what made them successful was that they were an interracial couple and the father looked like the kids and they did a lot of work with other families who adopted from that same country with both parents being white. I provided many a notarized document for this family because of how they did things.

It isn't an either or, it is a both. We need systems in the USA to support the kids who are adopted internationally, and for domestic children to be fostered or adopted. Granted there's a whole huge separate issue, the elephant in the room which is tattooed on DrPhil's forehead of why we have so many kids internally who are also in need and what can be done in that arena.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Go fuck yourself.

You got the pissiness that you were searching for. Fuck off.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Ha. It sure is painful.

I think it boils down to all adoption is not created equally. What was that thread where we were randomly talking about adoption? It had absolutely nothing to do with the OT but it was a good convo.

It was in "What do you feel like saying right now" and maybe some others randomly.

I think so much needs to be done in the field of white people admitting and accepting their white privilege and how it affects them and others. I've been involved in small group sessions/workshops at my University where we're working to address this through education and exploration, and I'd like to think I'm doing something on the micro scale. I'm not saying "oh poor white people, life is so hard" but if I am the agent provocateur who can confront people or help them work through it, than so be it.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Thanks for sharing your really interesting perspective. There are different approaches to this topic and I'm interested to see why people feel as they do.

I don't see how what you said about internationally adopting babies was "pissy." Isn't it true?

Pretty much.

I have friends who have been trying to adopt a newborn dometically (which involves being chosen by a pregnant birth mother via an agency). They've been signed on with an agency since they got married 4 years ago and have not come close to being chosen by a birth mom. There are like 100 couples signed with this agency (or more) and about 20 or 30 birth moms at any given time-- and all of those women won't go through with it, so there are less than that.

You could be signed on with an agency for YEARS and never even be considered by a birth mom, much less be selected as parents.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Pretty much.

I have friends who have been trying to adopt a newborn dometically (which involves being chosen by a pregnant birth mother via an agency). They've been signed on with an agency since they got married 4 years ago and have not come close to being chosen by a birth mom. There are like 100 couples signed with this agency (or more) and about 20 or 30 birth moms at any given time-- and all of those women won't go through with it, so there are less than that.

You could be signed on with an agency for YEARS and never even be considered by a birth mom, much less be selected as parents.

You got me thinking, and I now have realized that all the couples I know who have successfully adopted domestically either straight out or through foster parenting have been interracial/biracial/multi ethnic and that is probably a deciding factor for a lot of reasons. They have less, competition if you will, as they aren't trying to only get white children, and they also have their own identity and life experience which mothers and agencies may prefer for these babies/toddlers.

[carnation]

Been there, done all of it. It isn't so easy to find children through the foster children, especially if you're looking to find children with mild issues. Even those who are taken from their parents at a very young age may have big issues that haven't shown up yet, such as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. And face it, for a child to be permanently removed from the family home, the parents have almost always done something awful that hugely impacted the child.

There are websites like www.adoptuskids.org that have pages of adoptable kids but often, dozens of homestudied families are submitting on the same kids and you may never even hear back from the workers. There are message boards where potential adoptive parents talk about how they've been hunting for children--sometimes very challenged children!!--for 5-6 years and they can't even get workers to call them back.

Many states have PR campaigns that make you think that there are all these great adoptable kids in the system but I know far more people who finally gave up after years of getting approved, then searching and searching, than I know people who succeeded-- and none of these parents were searching for a perfect baby or even young child either.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

It was in "What do you feel like saying right now" and maybe some others randomly.

I think so much needs to be done in the field of white people admitting and accepting their white privilege and how it affects them and others. I've been involved in small group sessions/workshops at my University where we're working to address this through education and exploration, and I'd like to think I'm doing something on the micro scale. I'm not saying "oh poor white people, life is so hard" but if I am the agent provocateur who can confront people or help them work through it, than so be it.

Cool.

Yeah being aware is not to confused with white people feeling a need to be apologetic or anything of that sort. It's simply the case that constructs and modes of social interaction don't disappear just because people choose to ignore them when it is convenient for them.