Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

Child Protective Services has now taken custody of 401 children from the compound. Wow.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....3f3c0801.html

Wow, I bet their system is overwhelmed.

But I'm glad the kids are out.

[Jill1228]

Originally Posted by jitterbug13

^^^^
Co-sign!!!!

Also read Shattered Dreams by Irene Spenser. It's not as current as Escape but along the same lines.

actually the books were published a few months apart and i have read both of them

[jitterbug13]

I did too. Shattered Dreams was way back in the day (ends in the early 80s) but Escape was fairly recent. Jeffs was also the leader of her community as well. I can't believe he stopped the children from going to school!

[bejazd]

I was doing some research on this subject for a class a few years ago and found several other books by an author I liked... One is American Massacre by Susan Denton, her other book is called Faith and Betrayal. Faith and Betrayal is based on her great aunt's diary and is the story of her immigration from England to New Orleans via sailing ship in the 1850s, then on to Salt Lake and later to California.

[PeppyGPhiB]

For anyone interested in reading about religious cults and why people join/stay in them, I recommend "Why Waco?" by James Tabor, a religion professor at University of North Carolina who was a consultant of sorts for the U.S. govt. during its ordeal in Waco. I read it in college and thought it was very interesting. Religion is a complex topic - one that people feel very passionately about. All religions are based on faith (often blind faith), and spirituality can hardly be called rational.

[Benzgirl]

During the ABC news tonight, they commented on how scared the children were of the outside world and the people. I can't remember who they were interviewing (someone from Texas social services), but the woman said the children were terrified of anyone other than those they knew.
Very sad

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

During the ABC news tonight, they commented on how scared the children were of the outside world and the people. I can't remember who they were interviewing (someone from Texas social services), but the woman said the children were terrified of anyone other than those they knew.
Very sad

Yeah, it wouldn't be surprising if they had been taught that everyone outside the compound was going to hell and now they were cast out among them. It'd be scary on a lot of different levels.

[Jill1228]

Just picked up Under the Banner of Heaven from the library

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Jill1228

Just picked up Under the Banner of Heaven from the library

I ordered it today too. It's more focused on one particular murder, I think, but it will still be interesting to read Krakauer's account of how the mainstream church reacted in that particular instance.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I ordered it today too. It's more focused on one particular murder, I think, but it will still be interesting to read Krakauer's account of how the mainstream church reacted in that particular instance.

Covers a great deal more than just one murder. I just read it a few months ago.
And yes, it does cover this situation in a way. There is more than just one of these groups and they are also up in Canada.

And I think I should add that my next door neighbors are members of the Later Day Saints. And they are rather normal people. NOT like these folks at all.

And I think, IMVHO, that this threads title is a bit off and very mis-leading.

534 women, children leave polygamist ranch

All 401 children deemed in danger; arrest made earlier at compound
ELDORADO, Texas - Officials on Monday announced that 534 women and children — more than twice as many as had been earlier reported — were removed from a polygamist compound and that all 401 children have been placed in state custody because a judge deemed them in imminent danger of physical abuse.
State police earlier made an arrest as they searched the sprawling rural compound built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs during an investigation into a possible underage marriage.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23993440/
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/AsSeen...4602341&page=1

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Covers a great deal more than just one murder. I just read it a few months ago.
And yes, it does cover this situation in a way.

And I think I should add that my next door neighbors are members of the Later Day Saints. And they are rather normal people. NOT like these folks at all.

And I think, IMVHO, that this threads title is a bit off and very mis-leading.

Why do you think the thread title is misleading? The sect's name is Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I realize that's only off by one word from what the mainstream Mormon church calls itself, but it is the official name.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Why do you think the thread title is misleading? The sect's name is Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I realize that's only off by one word from what the mainstream Mormon church calls itself, but it is the official name.

That is what I mean/meant.
How about using one of the many head-lines?
But what ever..the actions there and current activities are more important.

[EE-BO]

Hey guys,

To clarify my statements earlier- I did a fair amount of research on my own years ago for a couple of papers in school on the Mormon Church and that, plus my own tracking of recent events, is what informs my opinion.

The Mormon Church has a very deliberately crafted power structure based in legal and private sector influence that dates back quite far. The ZCMI stores are a good example. It is also worth noting that Coca-Cola products became acceptable (though not for the Temple-Worthy) when the Mormon Church bought a large share of the Coca-Cola company. This is a religion based in commerce and power- and it always has been.

There is much historical evidence to support specific stories in various texts held sacred by Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists- evidence that is thousands of years old. And yet there is ZERO physical evidence of the claims of the Book of Mormon regarding events that are not even 200 years old. Add in the fact the Church's founder ran West to escape what he saw as persecution for his paganistic ways, and it is very hard to put any credence in the accounts in the Book of Mormon. Certainly faith cares not for historical evidence, but one has a right to wonder why- in the context of how the Book of Mormon came about- why there is absolutely nothing to suggest the accounts are based in anything factual when all other religions can claim that.

Mormon power in Utah is great. Warren Jeffs ran his cult with the support of local law enforcement and government officials in a fairly open manner.

And yet it took YEARS after he made media headlines for there to be any action- and it was federal action, not state action by a government elected by a state dominated by Mormons.

This is a crowning example of how "mainstream" Mormons- by virtue of the sin of omission- tolerate the extremists among them. To say "I don't support that" but to keep on supporting the church is meaningless. Either you support the actions of your church or you don't.

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

And that is how religions must be judged in the context of their existence in a world society that has finally come to recognize the importance of the difference between Church versus State.

Israeli Jews ruthlessly prosecute Jews who engage in terrorist acts against Palestinians. American Christians as a group have little sympathy for those who kill doctors who perform abortions or for those who commit acts of terrorism and claim they were done in the name of Christianity.

And yet on an ongoing basis, Mormons tolerate and fail to demand action against the Warren Jeffs among them.

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.

[jon1856]

Focus of a Raid in Texas Was Living Out of State
ELDORADO, Tex. — A 50-year-old man sought for arrest on a sexual abuse complaint that Texas authorities said had led them to raid a polygamist compound here is not in hiding but living in Arizona with three women and their 22 children and disavows any role in the case, his probation officer said Monday.
The officer, Bill Loader of the Mojave County Probation Department in Arizona, is in daily contact with the man, Dale Barlow, a plumber and carpenter who lives in Colorado City, Ariz., he said. Mr. Loader said he found Mr. Barlow’s denials credible and knew of no efforts by Texas authorities to seek his extradition.
A spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, Tela Mange, said Monday at a briefing in San Angelo that the department had received reports that Mr. Barlow “may be outside of the state of Texas, but we have not been able to independently confirm that.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/us...rss&oref=login

[jon1856]

After reading only Under the Banner of Heaven I had some very similar thoughts. I started to think of these groups as our own kind of Taliban.
And I did start wondering just who was, in truth, running Utah.
However this case, and many others, are in different states and it still goes on.
And all of these splinter groups operate independently of both "Main-stream" Church and each other. And while they operated as self-contained units, and claim to hate all Governments, they just love to milk the welfare system:
As noted in several of the news stories, all of these un-married women claim and collect monies.

"Polygamy is outlawed everywhere in the United States but the male followers of such sects typically marry one woman officially and take the others as "spiritual wives."
This makes the women single in the eyes of the state which can entitle them and their children to various welfare benefits."

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Hey guys,

To clarify my statements earlier- I did a fair amount of research on my own years ago for a couple of papers in school on the Mormon Church and that, plus my own tracking of recent events, is what informs my opinion.

The Mormon Church has a very deliberately crafted power structure based in legal and private sector influence that dates back quite far. The ZCMI stores are a good example. It is also worth noting that Coca-Cola products became acceptable (though not for the Temple-Worthy) when the Mormon Church bought a large share of the Coca-Cola company. This is a religion based in commerce and power- and it always has been.

There is much historical evidence to support specific stories in various texts held sacred by Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists- evidence that is thousands of years old. And yet there is ZERO physical evidence of the claims of the Book of Mormon regarding events that are not even 200 years old. Add in the fact the Church's founder ran West to escape what he saw as persecution for his paganistic ways, and it is very hard to put any credence in the accounts in the Book of Mormon. Certainly faith cares not for historical evidence, but one has a right to wonder why- in the context of how the Book of Mormon came about- why there is absolutely nothing to suggest the accounts are based in anything factual when all other religions can claim that.

Mormon power in Utah is great. Warren Jeffs ran his cult with the support of local law enforcement and government officials in a fairly open manner.

And yet it took YEARS after he made media headlines for there to be any action- and it was federal action, not state action by a government elected by a state dominated by Mormons.

This is a crowning example of how "mainstream" Mormons- by virtue of the sin of omission- tolerate the extremists among them. To say "I don't support that" but to keep on supporting the church is meaningless. Either you support the actions of your church or you don't.

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

And that is how religions must be judged in the context of their existence in a world society that has finally come to recognize the importance of the difference between Church versus State.

Israeli Jews ruthlessly prosecute Jews who engage in terrorist acts against Palestinians. American Christians as a group have little sympathy for those who kill doctors who perform abortions or for those who commit acts of terrorism and claim they were done in the name of Christianity.

And yet on an ongoing basis, Mormons tolerate and fail to demand action against the Warren Jeffs among them.

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.