Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[EE-BO]

Hey guys,

To clarify my statements earlier- I did a fair amount of research on my own years ago for a couple of papers in school on the Mormon Church and that, plus my own tracking of recent events, is what informs my opinion.

The Mormon Church has a very deliberately crafted power structure based in legal and private sector influence that dates back quite far. The ZCMI stores are a good example. It is also worth noting that Coca-Cola products became acceptable (though not for the Temple-Worthy) when the Mormon Church bought a large share of the Coca-Cola company. This is a religion based in commerce and power- and it always has been.

There is much historical evidence to support specific stories in various texts held sacred by Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists- evidence that is thousands of years old. And yet there is ZERO physical evidence of the claims of the Book of Mormon regarding events that are not even 200 years old. Add in the fact the Church's founder ran West to escape what he saw as persecution for his paganistic ways, and it is very hard to put any credence in the accounts in the Book of Mormon. Certainly faith cares not for historical evidence, but one has a right to wonder why- in the context of how the Book of Mormon came about- why there is absolutely nothing to suggest the accounts are based in anything factual when all other religions can claim that.

Mormon power in Utah is great. Warren Jeffs ran his cult with the support of local law enforcement and government officials in a fairly open manner.

And yet it took YEARS after he made media headlines for there to be any action- and it was federal action, not state action by a government elected by a state dominated by Mormons.

This is a crowning example of how "mainstream" Mormons- by virtue of the sin of omission- tolerate the extremists among them. To say "I don't support that" but to keep on supporting the church is meaningless. Either you support the actions of your church or you don't.

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

And that is how religions must be judged in the context of their existence in a world society that has finally come to recognize the importance of the difference between Church versus State.

Israeli Jews ruthlessly prosecute Jews who engage in terrorist acts against Palestinians. American Christians as a group have little sympathy for those who kill doctors who perform abortions or for those who commit acts of terrorism and claim they were done in the name of Christianity.

And yet on an ongoing basis, Mormons tolerate and fail to demand action against the Warren Jeffs among them.

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.

[jon1856]

Focus of a Raid in Texas Was Living Out of State
ELDORADO, Tex. — A 50-year-old man sought for arrest on a sexual abuse complaint that Texas authorities said had led them to raid a polygamist compound here is not in hiding but living in Arizona with three women and their 22 children and disavows any role in the case, his probation officer said Monday.
The officer, Bill Loader of the Mojave County Probation Department in Arizona, is in daily contact with the man, Dale Barlow, a plumber and carpenter who lives in Colorado City, Ariz., he said. Mr. Loader said he found Mr. Barlow’s denials credible and knew of no efforts by Texas authorities to seek his extradition.
A spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, Tela Mange, said Monday at a briefing in San Angelo that the department had received reports that Mr. Barlow “may be outside of the state of Texas, but we have not been able to independently confirm that.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/us...rss&oref=login

[jon1856]

After reading only Under the Banner of Heaven I had some very similar thoughts. I started to think of these groups as our own kind of Taliban.
And I did start wondering just who was, in truth, running Utah.
However this case, and many others, are in different states and it still goes on.
And all of these splinter groups operate independently of both "Main-stream" Church and each other. And while they operated as self-contained units, and claim to hate all Governments, they just love to milk the welfare system:
As noted in several of the news stories, all of these un-married women claim and collect monies.

"Polygamy is outlawed everywhere in the United States but the male followers of such sects typically marry one woman officially and take the others as "spiritual wives."
This makes the women single in the eyes of the state which can entitle them and their children to various welfare benefits."

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Hey guys,

To clarify my statements earlier- I did a fair amount of research on my own years ago for a couple of papers in school on the Mormon Church and that, plus my own tracking of recent events, is what informs my opinion.

The Mormon Church has a very deliberately crafted power structure based in legal and private sector influence that dates back quite far. The ZCMI stores are a good example. It is also worth noting that Coca-Cola products became acceptable (though not for the Temple-Worthy) when the Mormon Church bought a large share of the Coca-Cola company. This is a religion based in commerce and power- and it always has been.

There is much historical evidence to support specific stories in various texts held sacred by Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists- evidence that is thousands of years old. And yet there is ZERO physical evidence of the claims of the Book of Mormon regarding events that are not even 200 years old. Add in the fact the Church's founder ran West to escape what he saw as persecution for his paganistic ways, and it is very hard to put any credence in the accounts in the Book of Mormon. Certainly faith cares not for historical evidence, but one has a right to wonder why- in the context of how the Book of Mormon came about- why there is absolutely nothing to suggest the accounts are based in anything factual when all other religions can claim that.

Mormon power in Utah is great. Warren Jeffs ran his cult with the support of local law enforcement and government officials in a fairly open manner.

And yet it took YEARS after he made media headlines for there to be any action- and it was federal action, not state action by a government elected by a state dominated by Mormons.

This is a crowning example of how "mainstream" Mormons- by virtue of the sin of omission- tolerate the extremists among them. To say "I don't support that" but to keep on supporting the church is meaningless. Either you support the actions of your church or you don't.

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

And that is how religions must be judged in the context of their existence in a world society that has finally come to recognize the importance of the difference between Church versus State.

Israeli Jews ruthlessly prosecute Jews who engage in terrorist acts against Palestinians. American Christians as a group have little sympathy for those who kill doctors who perform abortions or for those who commit acts of terrorism and claim they were done in the name of Christianity.

And yet on an ongoing basis, Mormons tolerate and fail to demand action against the Warren Jeffs among them.

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.

[Educatingblue]

Originally Posted by jon1856

"Polygamy is outlawed everywhere in the United States but the male followers of such sects typically marry one woman officially and take the others as "spiritual wives."
This makes the women single in the eyes of the state which can entitle them and their children to various welfare benefits."

I am glad you mentioned this. My husband and I were discussing this the other day and minus the child molestation, this is the same thing many married people choose to do everyday...Married and have affairs with other women/men. What about people who do not acknowledge or follow any religion and just sleep around??? I know it does not hold the same stigma, but it is definitely something to consider. I am not going to condone what happened there, but I definitely try to be open-minded about different cultures/religions etc.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Educatingblue

I am glad you mentioned this. My husband and I were discussing this the other day and minus the child molestation, this is the same thing many married people choose to do everyday...Married and have affairs with other women/men. What about people who do not acknowledge or follow any religion and just sleep around??? I know it does not hold the same stigma, but it is definitely something to consider. I am not going to condone what happened there, but I definitely try to be open-minded about different cultures/religions etc.

One of the very big differences is that they use/abuse the system and use the monies to support the group.
Read any of the books suggested here for more details.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.

Same here. I can't trust that group as a whole...

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

History's greatest child molestation ring? I'm going to need some sources on that.

[SWTXBelle]

You can make a pretty solid case for public schools being the "world's largest child molestation ring", come to that. And yet, we never see much coverage . . . isolated incidents are reported,but there's no hue and cry about the overall problem. Your child is far more likely to be abused in a school setting than a Catholic church, especially now. (And I'm not letting the Roman Catholics off the hook - the way they handled abuse until recently is a disgrace.)

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

You can make a pretty solid case for public schools being the "world's largest child molestation ring", come to that. And yet, we never see much coverage . . . isolated incidents are reported,but there's no hue and cry about the overall problem. Your child is far more likely to be abused in a school setting than a Catholic church, especially now. (And I'm not letting the Roman Catholics off the hook - the way they handled abuse until recently is a disgrace.)

But he refers to 200+ years ago, which is a new one to me as far as child molestation charges.

And not to quibble too much, blaming all Roman Catholics for the 20th century stuff may not make as much sense as it first appears. The Church hierarchy, particularly in the US, certainly deserves blame. The average Roman Catholic who was probably completely unaware of any allegations, not so much.

And as far as public schools, it wouldn't make much sense to frame the problem that way considering the number of interactions with children daily and the relatively tiny number of molestation cases. Surely more children are molested in their own homes or those of friends and family members. Would you say that the American family is a hotbed of child molestation? Using these standards, I suppose we'd be forced to conclude that places with the best records on child molestation are the places that children are least likely to be.

But I think your point was that EE-BO's claim may have been a little flawed.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

History's greatest child molestation ring? I'm going to need some sources on that.

There is some conjecture there, but I base it in large part on the literature of Spain during the Medievel and Renaissance periods. Just about every major work that survived takes on the church in some way. And many books, like Lazarillo de Tormes, are full of tales of church abuse of the citizenry sexually.

Then of course there are all the works the Chuch banned and destroyed. There are many partial texts out there that tell far more chilling tales- one a partial story about a female heroine who went from town to town and cut off the sexual organs of priests who took her in and tried to molest her.

The sheer importance of Church misdoings throughout the entirety of Spanish Literature of that time is a very telling and frightening thing.

But again, I do not equate that with today. It was not Catholicism itself that was evil- but rather the fact that the Church then wielded such a great power in Europe.

It is the component of power and economic influence that creates the temptation and the trouble.

And this is important because it separates the religion itself from the actions of the power structure of the Church. To an extent, parishoners who support such a church are tied to its actions- but that is still a far cry from all Mormons or all Catholics of 500 years ago being monsters.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

There is some conjecture there, but I base it in large part on the literature of Spain during the Medievel and Renaissance periods. Just about every major work that survived takes on the church in some way. And many books, like Lazarillo de Tormes, are full of tales of church abuse of the citizenry sexually.

Then of course there are all the works the Chuch banned and destroyed. There are many partial texts out there that tell far more chilling tales- one a partial story about a female heroine who went from town to town and cut off the sexual organs of priests who took her in and tried to molest her.

The sheer importance of Church misdoings throughout the entirety of Spanish Literature of that time is a very telling and frightening thing.

But again, I do not equate that with today. It was not Catholicism itself that was evil- but rather the fact that the Church then wielded such a great power in Europe.

It is the component of power and economic influence that creates the temptation and the trouble.

And this is important because it separates the religion itself from the actions of the power structure of the Church. To an extent, parishoners who support such a church are tied to its actions- but that is still a far cry from all Mormons or all Catholics of 500 years ago being monsters.

"Some conjecture" may be the understatement of a lifetime.

The parishioners are only tied to its actions if the parishioners are aware or should be aware of the abuse taking place or have some power or means to stop it. I'm not sure either the Mormons of today or the Catholics of history would meet that standard.

Are you aware that sometimes the things in books aren't real? Just asking.

ETA: I'm, of course, not saying that the Catholic Church historically wasn't corrupt. I just think you have to acknowledge that any entity as powerful as it was would face exaggeration of its faults.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

"Some conjecture" may be the understatement of a lifetime.

The parishioners are only tied to its actions if the parishioners are aware or should be aware of the abuse taking place or have some power or means to stop it. I'm not sure either the Mormons of today or the Catholics of history would meet that standard.

Are you aware that sometimes the things in books aren't real? Just asking.

ETA: I'm, of course, not saying that the Catholic Church historically wasn't corrupt. I just think you have to acknowledge that any entity as powerful as it was would face exaggeration of its faults.

This is not a matter of "sometimes the things in books aren't real". This is a matter of two ENTIRE eras of literature being heavily dominated by a specific theme.

I don't want to brag, but I have read almost every major Spanish work of Literature covering 3 centuries- and a good bit of the most highly regarded work of the last 200 years. We are talking over 100 novels and many times more that number of poems, short stories and partially surviving excerpts of books that were banned and destroyed by the Inquisition. I know that may not translate into a "fact sheet" by modern standards- but it is all we have, and I have done the work and rendered informed judgements.

As for your final comment- that is entirely the point I was making. The Catholic Church was, for a long time, THE most powerful entity in Europe at a time when Europe was the center of the human world.

It is inevitable that an entity which had enormous wealth and the power endowed by religious belief would be so potent that its leaders would be ripe for unchecked corruption. It is all the more so because Europe at that time was totally class-driven. The priesthood was the ONLY possible way for people born into the lower and middle classes to attain the same degree of power and security as the nobility. So to become a priest was many people's ONLY choice for wealth and prestige. That is precisely the kind of environment that breeds corruption and the "blue wall" mentality.

But if you want facts, I can give you facts. There is a wide body of documented evidence of the Inquisitions torture techniques, what triggered their interest in people and the trail of blood they left behind.

And in 1492, when Columbus was "discovering" America- Spain expelled the Sephardic Jews from their country. Maybe that was not quite as bad as what the Nazi's did since the Spaniards did not kill their Jews- but they rounded them up and threw them out for no other reason than they were Jews and Ferdinand & Isabella had been convinced that religious purity (Catholic purity) was the key to Spain's continued endurance as a great nation. It is the same kind of racist attitude that drove the Nazi's, the KKK and other luminous organizations whose legacy is pretty clear.

There is plenty of factual evidence out there to suggest what a horror the Catholic Church inflicted on the world during that time. I don't know what more to say than that. It is a major factor in how the world is today.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

This is not a matter of "sometimes the things in books aren't real". This is a matter of two ENTIRE eras of literature being heavily dominated by a specific theme.

I don't want to brag, but I have read almost every major Spanish work of Literature covering 3 centuries- and a good bit of the most highly regarded work of the last 200 years. We are talking over 100 novels and many times more that number of poems, short stories and partially surviving excerpts of books that were banned and destroyed by the Inquisition. I know that may not translate into a "fact sheet" by modern standards- but it is all we have, and I have done the work and rendered informed judgements.

As for your final comment- that is entirely the point I was making. The Catholic Church was, for a long time, THE most powerful entity in Europe at a time when Europe was the center of the human world.

It is inevitable that an entity which had enormous wealth and the power endowed by religious belief would be so potent that its leaders would be ripe for unchecked corruption. It is all the more so because Europe at that time was totally class-driven. The priesthood was the ONLY possible way for people born into the lower and middle classes to attain the same degree of power and security as the nobility. So to become a priest was many people's ONLY choice for wealth and prestige. That is precisely the kind of environment that breeds corruption and the "blue wall" mentality.

But if you want facts, I can give you facts. There is a wide body of documented evidence of the Inquisitions torture techniques, what triggered their interest in people and the trail of blood they left behind.

And in 1492, when Columbus was "discovering" America- Spain expelled the Sephardic Jews from their country. Maybe that was not quite as bad as what the Nazi's did since the Spaniards did not kill their Jews- but they rounded them up and threw them out for no other reason than they were Jews and Ferdinand & Isabella had been convinced that religious purity (Catholic purity) was the key to Spain's continued endurance as a great nation. It is the same kind of racist attitude that drove the Nazi's, the KKK and other luminous organizations whose legacy is pretty clear.

There is plenty of factual evidence out there to suggest what a horror the Catholic Church inflicted on the world during that time. I don't know what more to say than that. It is a major factor in how the world is today.

Right, but if you remember, your claim was the "biggest child molestation ring in history" if I remember correctly which doesn't seem to be what you are addressing here.

If you had said that the Catholic Church was a corrupt institution or that the Inquisition was really bad back in the day, I wouldn't have questioned you. You've shifted your claim a great deal.

[jon1856]

Affidavit: Report of child brides led to raid

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Tipped that girls as young as 13 were being forced to enter "spiritual marriages," have sex and bear children, Texas officials raided an isolated polygamist retreat in West Texas, according to court documents released Tuesday.

The information came from a 16-year-old girl who called a family violence hot line March 29, "expressing the need to leave her current living situation," according to the affidavit.
The teen bride said she was in an abusive "spiritual" marriage to an older sect member, the documents stated. She reported that she was the man's seventh wife and had been beaten and choked.
She said she had been hospitalized in the past with cracked ribs and hoped to escape the abuse by faking a medical condition.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/08/...nch/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348148,00.html

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Right, but if you remember, your claim was the "biggest child molestation ring in history" if I remember correctly which doesn't seem to be what you are addressing here.

If you had said that the Catholic Church was a corrupt institution or that the Inquisition was really bad back in the day, I wouldn't have questioned you. You've shifted your claim a great deal.

The anecdotal and historical evidence is driven heavily by reports and accounts of pedophilia and rape of women.

More recently, how about Cardinal Bernard Law who was knowingly transferring a repeatedly complained about pedophilic priest who had attacked many children. It was known the guy was messing with kids, and Law just kept moving him around.

How about the fact the Pope pulled him over to Europe and gave him a PROMOTION when Law had to get out of the US or face the ire of American Catholics?

How are Law and our last Pope NOT somehow guilty for the facilitation of child molestation on this score alone?

If something like that can happen today, then it is no stretch to take all the evidence of times past and put together the pieces.