Michigan voters ban affirmative action

[shinerbock]

Yeah, you could term me a conservative. My problem is not with the government helping people to get back on their feet, its with people EXPECTING that. I think social programs have a history of discouraging personal responsibility of both those needing such programs, and the rest of us who don't. I just hate the idea that our government, or our well off citizens, "owe" anyone anything. Ideally, what I'd like to see is minimum government social programs, with increased emphasis on religious and charitable organization work. From a Christian standpoint, I think that government involvement in this area is allowing Christians to slack off on their responsibilities. I also think that the government's complete failure in the arena of social programs has turned those who could help away from doing so, because of things like incredibly high tax burdens and little restrictions on aid. It would require some time and a complete societal change to fix the system to how I would like to see it, but lets be honest, the government will never be able to fix the poverty problem. The only way we'll fix it is to put the responsibility on private organizations and individual Americans, and emphasize to those in poverty that while they may be given the tools, they'll have to put in the work.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, you could term me a conservative. My problem is not with the government helping people to get back on their feet, its with people EXPECTING that. I think social programs have a history of discouraging personal responsibility of both those needing such programs, and the rest of us who don't. I just hate the idea that our government, or our well off citizens, "owe" anyone anything. Ideally, what I'd like to see is minimum government social programs, with increased emphasis on religious and charitable organization work. From a Christian standpoint, I think that government involvement in this area is allowing Christians to slack off on their responsibilities. I also think that the government's complete failure in the arena of social programs has turned those who could help away from doing so, because of things like incredibly high tax burdens and little restrictions on aid. It would require some time and a complete societal change to fix the system to how I would like to see it, but lets be honest, the government will never be able to fix the poverty problem. The only way we'll fix it is to put the responsibility on private organizations and individual Americans, and emphasize to those in poverty that while they may be given the tools, they'll have to put in the work.

Thanks for your candid response. It's not about "fixing" the poverty problem because the world is too dynamic to assume that a few years of social programs will fix any social ill. As long as we have capitalism, globalization, and large sums of money going to establish democracy in other nations, the U.S. government benefits more by having a huge disjuncture between the haves and have nots.

Shouldn't taxpaying citizens expect for the government to provide safetynets? The poor, which includes the people who are between jobs and the working poor, still pay taxes. Didn't the nonpoor who fell on bad times after 9/11 expect the U.S. government to assist them with certain social welfare programs? If paying taxes and being citizens of this great land don't lead to certain expectations, what does?

If you look at the history of social welfare programs especially those dating back to the early 20th century, it was never about dismissing personal responsibility for the poor and nonpoor. The government simply took up the slack for the poor and nonpoor when times of war or economic depression hit. Even today, the average person on welfare is of the working poor or has lost a job and gone back on welfare. No people in their right minds will not do for themselves just because they think the government will do for them once the bureaucratic red tape clears. The stereotypical poor person who'd rather sit around waiting for a paycheck is a small percentage as is the welfare mother with tons of children. Even people who are considered "middle class" and upper middle class live paycheck to paycheck because their class status is based on income and not wealth. They don't realize how close they are to the edge until times like 9/11 hit.

The well-off citizens who comprise the top 5% didn't get there on their own. They got help along the way in the form of government wealthfare programs and tax cuts, as well as stepping on the heads of the less well-off on the way to the top. This isn't a pure meritocracy and if you were to tell the well-off that the government was providing no more incentives or safety nets for them and their corporations, they'd flip and contact some politicians.

[shinerbock]

Sure, I'm for a safety net, if it were feasible. The fact is, its really not now. It is simply a logistical and financial nightmare to help people get back on their feet while ensuring they are doing their part to make the assistance temporary. Also, we're never going to fix poverty, as you seem to agree, but I don't think we'll make any substantial gains when the government is leading the way either. I agree with you that the point is obviously not to discourage responsibility, but regardless, it has. I also agree with you that the large majority of people getting help aren't sitting around waiting for a check, or continuing to have children or whatever, but the fact is that plenty of them are.

As for the upper classes, you're right, some had help along the way. But more importantly, somewhere along the way, those people's father or grandfather busted his ass to provide a future for his family. Is that happening in today's society? Sure. As much? I don't think so.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Sure, I'm for a safety net, if it were feasible. The fact is, its really not now.

It is always feasible for the wealthiest and most powerful industrialized nation in the world.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Is that happening in today's society? Sure. As much? I don't think so.

It is happenening today but the economy and overall society has changed such that "busting your ass" means something different now than it did generations ago. Moreover, I don't know about you but, my grandparents busted their asses in the fields and in blue collar jobs and both of my parents busted their asses through higher-end academia and raising children so that I wouldn't have to "bust my ass" in the exact same way they did. It's called wealth accumulation and intergenerational mobility. I praise the Lord that I am a beneficiary of it. I'm not in the top 5% of society but I don't need to be to have the quality of life that I want for myself and my family.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Pike2001--

What are you really trying to say? Do you live in Michigan? And does the elimination of AA directly affect you?

Have you been displaced by any person of color, sex or disability for access and opportunity?

I just cannot get out of my head when I heard Mrs. Betty Shabazz speak. She kept saying "you MUST read the 1965 Civil Rights Act if you say you are for liberation...

How has AA helped you?

[shinerbock]

DSTS, how is it feasible. Its not working now, so tell me your plan. America is not what it is because of our government, its because of our people. There is opportunity here, and it doesn't start or end with the US government.

Basically, what I'm interested in is how the government is going to help people in poverty, and who is going to pay for it. I think I probably know the answer to the second part.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

DSTS, how is it feasible. Its not working now, so tell me your plan. America is not what it is because of our government, its because of our people. There is opportunity here, and it doesn't start or end with the US government.

Basically, what I'm interested in is how the government is going to help people in poverty, and who is going to pay for it. I think I probably know the answer to the second part.

We currently have safety nets. Combatting poverty is not only about having safety nets but also challenging the class pyramid formation.

LOL. America is what it is because of our government. We haven't been without a government for hundreds of years. The opportunities here most certainly begin and end with the government. Even wealthy people know that. That doesn't mean that the government completely controls the people's drive for success but the government provides certain incentives for success and lack thereof. It's how the status quo is upheld.

Everyone's going to pay for it. The poor pay taxes too. We all pay the same percentage. Of course those with more money will pay more in the end. That's okay because they get all sorts of tax breaks and tax writeoffs. They will survive. Trust.

[PiKA2001]

you really can't help everyone. It would be great to eliminate poverty but it's never going to happen.

[shinerbock]

Sigh, I just can't deal with that mindset. "Its ok, you have money, don't worry about it..." Yeah, we'll live, but that doesn't make it right. Affirmative Action probably won't ruin my life, but it doesn't make it right. I'm also amazed at how people just assume that the upper classes are so deeply involved in tax shelters and write-offs that the high bracket doesn't affect them. Go to an upper middle class neighborhood and ask those people how it feels to work for the government from Jan-May every year.

Our country is not our government, if thats how you think, then wow, we're worse off than I thought. America's strength is its people, always has been, always will be. Do you honestly think the government is how people survived during the great depression? No, they survived because their fellow man helped them out. We're so out of touch with what made America great, I'm beginning to fear its lost. Its not our government who sacrifice their lives and their careers to fight for our country, its our individual citizens. Not to be morbid, but sometimes I think the lack of adversity most Americans have to go through is making this country weak, because its people are completely unprepared to sustain it. Thankfully, there are still some people around to instill those values in some of us. Note, thats not a shot at you, its a shot at Americans in general.

[shinerbock]

Off topic:

San Francisco banned JROTC from schools this week. Wow.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Off topic:

San Francisco banned JROTC from schools this week. Wow.

why???

[shinerbock]

I haven't read any substantive articles yet, but MSNBC I think was saying it had to do with don't ask don't tell policy...and get this, promoting a culture of peace, or some other San Fran crap like that.

[Drolefille]

I'm not for booting ROTC programs off any campus, but I can see the conflict between a non-discrimination policy and the don't ask don't tell mentality. It's discrimination plain and simple.

However if you allow other groups of limited membership (Boy Scouts for example) there's no real grounds to boot out JROTC.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I haven't read any substantive articles yet, but MSNBC I think was saying it had to do with don't ask don't tell policy...and get this, promoting a culture of peace, or some other San Fran crap like that.

Can they even do that? I mean, JROTC is sponsered by the military, which is sponsered by the federal government.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Sigh, I just can't deal with that mindset. "Its ok, you have money, don't worry about it..." Yeah, we'll live, but that doesn't make it right. Affirmative Action probably won't ruin my life, but it doesn't make it right. I'm also amazed at how people just assume that the upper classes are so deeply involved in tax shelters and write-offs that the high bracket doesn't affect them. Go to an upper middle class neighborhood and ask those people how it feels to work for the government from Jan-May every year.

LOL. This paragraph borderlines on pretentious.

It's cool that you're taking ownership but also try not to take such ownership over this whole thing and see it from a new perspective. As a black woman who can't relate to being in poverty (well, graduate student poverty is only a temporary reality when you know you have always had options) I have to also be able to step outside of my class, race, and gender position and see different angles.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Our country is not our government, if thats how you think, then wow, we're worse off than I thought. America's strength is its people, always has been, always will be. Do you honestly think the government is how people survived during the great depression? No, they survived because their fellow man helped them out. We're so out of touch with what made America great, I'm beginning to fear its lost. Its not our government who sacrifice their lives and their careers to fight for our country, its our individual citizens. Not to be morbid, but sometimes I think the lack of adversity most Americans have to go through is making this country weak, because its people are completely unprepared to sustain it. Thankfully, there are still some people around to instill those values in some of us. Note, thats not a shot at you, its a shot at Americans in general.

I'm not convinced by much of what you typed. I feel as though it's idealism and humanized nationalism, which I think contradicts much of your posts against AA and social welfare programs. If it's about the people then, based on the logic I'm reading from your posts, self-serving citizens who want to succeed while other hardworking Americans fail should be considered unAmerican.

I do believe in the existence of a Protestant Ethic but, as you articulated, we don't get where we are by ourselves. We work hard and pull each other up by our bootstraps where we need to. So I hope you see how you've just supported the necessity of affirmative action and social welfare programs. When people don't choose to or can't pull each other up, the government programs are there. The government taxes us and reminds us that our hard earned money goes into the same pot.