Michigan voters ban affirmative action

[shinerbock]

Yeah, you could term me a conservative. My problem is not with the government helping people to get back on their feet, its with people EXPECTING that. I think social programs have a history of discouraging personal responsibility of both those needing such programs, and the rest of us who don't. I just hate the idea that our government, or our well off citizens, "owe" anyone anything. Ideally, what I'd like to see is minimum government social programs, with increased emphasis on religious and charitable organization work. From a Christian standpoint, I think that government involvement in this area is allowing Christians to slack off on their responsibilities. I also think that the government's complete failure in the arena of social programs has turned those who could help away from doing so, because of things like incredibly high tax burdens and little restrictions on aid. It would require some time and a complete societal change to fix the system to how I would like to see it, but lets be honest, the government will never be able to fix the poverty problem. The only way we'll fix it is to put the responsibility on private organizations and individual Americans, and emphasize to those in poverty that while they may be given the tools, they'll have to put in the work.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, you could term me a conservative. My problem is not with the government helping people to get back on their feet, its with people EXPECTING that. I think social programs have a history of discouraging personal responsibility of both those needing such programs, and the rest of us who don't. I just hate the idea that our government, or our well off citizens, "owe" anyone anything. Ideally, what I'd like to see is minimum government social programs, with increased emphasis on religious and charitable organization work. From a Christian standpoint, I think that government involvement in this area is allowing Christians to slack off on their responsibilities. I also think that the government's complete failure in the arena of social programs has turned those who could help away from doing so, because of things like incredibly high tax burdens and little restrictions on aid. It would require some time and a complete societal change to fix the system to how I would like to see it, but lets be honest, the government will never be able to fix the poverty problem. The only way we'll fix it is to put the responsibility on private organizations and individual Americans, and emphasize to those in poverty that while they may be given the tools, they'll have to put in the work.

Thanks for your candid response. It's not about "fixing" the poverty problem because the world is too dynamic to assume that a few years of social programs will fix any social ill. As long as we have capitalism, globalization, and large sums of money going to establish democracy in other nations, the U.S. government benefits more by having a huge disjuncture between the haves and have nots.

Shouldn't taxpaying citizens expect for the government to provide safetynets? The poor, which includes the people who are between jobs and the working poor, still pay taxes. Didn't the nonpoor who fell on bad times after 9/11 expect the U.S. government to assist them with certain social welfare programs? If paying taxes and being citizens of this great land don't lead to certain expectations, what does?

If you look at the history of social welfare programs especially those dating back to the early 20th century, it was never about dismissing personal responsibility for the poor and nonpoor. The government simply took up the slack for the poor and nonpoor when times of war or economic depression hit. Even today, the average person on welfare is of the working poor or has lost a job and gone back on welfare. No people in their right minds will not do for themselves just because they think the government will do for them once the bureaucratic red tape clears. The stereotypical poor person who'd rather sit around waiting for a paycheck is a small percentage as is the welfare mother with tons of children. Even people who are considered "middle class" and upper middle class live paycheck to paycheck because their class status is based on income and not wealth. They don't realize how close they are to the edge until times like 9/11 hit.

The well-off citizens who comprise the top 5% didn't get there on their own. They got help along the way in the form of government wealthfare programs and tax cuts, as well as stepping on the heads of the less well-off on the way to the top. This isn't a pure meritocracy and if you were to tell the well-off that the government was providing no more incentives or safety nets for them and their corporations, they'd flip and contact some politicians.

[shinerbock]

Sure, I'm for a safety net, if it were feasible. The fact is, its really not now. It is simply a logistical and financial nightmare to help people get back on their feet while ensuring they are doing their part to make the assistance temporary. Also, we're never going to fix poverty, as you seem to agree, but I don't think we'll make any substantial gains when the government is leading the way either. I agree with you that the point is obviously not to discourage responsibility, but regardless, it has. I also agree with you that the large majority of people getting help aren't sitting around waiting for a check, or continuing to have children or whatever, but the fact is that plenty of them are.

As for the upper classes, you're right, some had help along the way. But more importantly, somewhere along the way, those people's father or grandfather busted his ass to provide a future for his family. Is that happening in today's society? Sure. As much? I don't think so.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Sure, I'm for a safety net, if it were feasible. The fact is, its really not now.

It is always feasible for the wealthiest and most powerful industrialized nation in the world.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Is that happening in today's society? Sure. As much? I don't think so.

It is happenening today but the economy and overall society has changed such that "busting your ass" means something different now than it did generations ago. Moreover, I don't know about you but, my grandparents busted their asses in the fields and in blue collar jobs and both of my parents busted their asses through higher-end academia and raising children so that I wouldn't have to "bust my ass" in the exact same way they did. It's called wealth accumulation and intergenerational mobility. I praise the Lord that I am a beneficiary of it. I'm not in the top 5% of society but I don't need to be to have the quality of life that I want for myself and my family.