Michigan voters ban affirmative action

[shinerbock]

DSTS, how is it feasible. Its not working now, so tell me your plan. America is not what it is because of our government, its because of our people. There is opportunity here, and it doesn't start or end with the US government.

Basically, what I'm interested in is how the government is going to help people in poverty, and who is going to pay for it. I think I probably know the answer to the second part.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

DSTS, how is it feasible. Its not working now, so tell me your plan. America is not what it is because of our government, its because of our people. There is opportunity here, and it doesn't start or end with the US government.

Basically, what I'm interested in is how the government is going to help people in poverty, and who is going to pay for it. I think I probably know the answer to the second part.

We currently have safety nets. Combatting poverty is not only about having safety nets but also challenging the class pyramid formation.

LOL. America is what it is because of our government. We haven't been without a government for hundreds of years. The opportunities here most certainly begin and end with the government. Even wealthy people know that. That doesn't mean that the government completely controls the people's drive for success but the government provides certain incentives for success and lack thereof. It's how the status quo is upheld.

Everyone's going to pay for it. The poor pay taxes too. We all pay the same percentage. Of course those with more money will pay more in the end. That's okay because they get all sorts of tax breaks and tax writeoffs. They will survive. Trust.

[PiKA2001]

you really can't help everyone. It would be great to eliminate poverty but it's never going to happen.

[shinerbock]

Sigh, I just can't deal with that mindset. "Its ok, you have money, don't worry about it..." Yeah, we'll live, but that doesn't make it right. Affirmative Action probably won't ruin my life, but it doesn't make it right. I'm also amazed at how people just assume that the upper classes are so deeply involved in tax shelters and write-offs that the high bracket doesn't affect them. Go to an upper middle class neighborhood and ask those people how it feels to work for the government from Jan-May every year.

Our country is not our government, if thats how you think, then wow, we're worse off than I thought. America's strength is its people, always has been, always will be. Do you honestly think the government is how people survived during the great depression? No, they survived because their fellow man helped them out. We're so out of touch with what made America great, I'm beginning to fear its lost. Its not our government who sacrifice their lives and their careers to fight for our country, its our individual citizens. Not to be morbid, but sometimes I think the lack of adversity most Americans have to go through is making this country weak, because its people are completely unprepared to sustain it. Thankfully, there are still some people around to instill those values in some of us. Note, thats not a shot at you, its a shot at Americans in general.

[shinerbock]

Off topic:

San Francisco banned JROTC from schools this week. Wow.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Off topic:

San Francisco banned JROTC from schools this week. Wow.

why???

[shinerbock]

I haven't read any substantive articles yet, but MSNBC I think was saying it had to do with don't ask don't tell policy...and get this, promoting a culture of peace, or some other San Fran crap like that.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Sigh, I just can't deal with that mindset. "Its ok, you have money, don't worry about it..." Yeah, we'll live, but that doesn't make it right. Affirmative Action probably won't ruin my life, but it doesn't make it right. I'm also amazed at how people just assume that the upper classes are so deeply involved in tax shelters and write-offs that the high bracket doesn't affect them. Go to an upper middle class neighborhood and ask those people how it feels to work for the government from Jan-May every year.

LOL. This paragraph borderlines on pretentious.

It's cool that you're taking ownership but also try not to take such ownership over this whole thing and see it from a new perspective. As a black woman who can't relate to being in poverty (well, graduate student poverty is only a temporary reality when you know you have always had options) I have to also be able to step outside of my class, race, and gender position and see different angles.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Our country is not our government, if thats how you think, then wow, we're worse off than I thought. America's strength is its people, always has been, always will be. Do you honestly think the government is how people survived during the great depression? No, they survived because their fellow man helped them out. We're so out of touch with what made America great, I'm beginning to fear its lost. Its not our government who sacrifice their lives and their careers to fight for our country, its our individual citizens. Not to be morbid, but sometimes I think the lack of adversity most Americans have to go through is making this country weak, because its people are completely unprepared to sustain it. Thankfully, there are still some people around to instill those values in some of us. Note, thats not a shot at you, its a shot at Americans in general.

I'm not convinced by much of what you typed. I feel as though it's idealism and humanized nationalism, which I think contradicts much of your posts against AA and social welfare programs. If it's about the people then, based on the logic I'm reading from your posts, self-serving citizens who want to succeed while other hardworking Americans fail should be considered unAmerican.

I do believe in the existence of a Protestant Ethic but, as you articulated, we don't get where we are by ourselves. We work hard and pull each other up by our bootstraps where we need to. So I hope you see how you've just supported the necessity of affirmative action and social welfare programs. When people don't choose to or can't pull each other up, the government programs are there. The government taxes us and reminds us that our hard earned money goes into the same pot.

[shinerbock]

It is idealism. It is nationalism. However, striving towards something we'll never get to, doesn't mean it wouldnt bring improvement. Also, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I don't expect such people to be persuaded to a view like mine. I value things a lot differently than you, I would suspect.

"If it's about the people then, based on the logic I'm reading from your posts, self-serving citizens who want to succeed while other hardworking Americans fail should be considered unAmerican."



-Contradictory,how so? I think you'll have to come up with something interesting to make that one stick. I do think its somewhat un-American to serve only yourself. Granted, thats simply an opinion, I'm not qualified to determine who is American and who isn't...If you'll note, I'm not against helping people, I've said this numerous times, I'm against people demanding to be helped. I'm also against people being forced to help, especially when the system providing the aid is such an utter failure. Forced giving just doesn't hold the value that true giving does...it doesn't hold as much significance with the people receiving or to the person giving. Also, I'm not against some sort of government aid, safety net if you will, but I've yet to see it work.

Back to my idealism, I think that if government left us the responsibility, we'd have no choice to act. I truly believe the American people would respond, we generally do. But then, I still place some faith in this country.

However, when the majority of people think government is what makes this country great, then we've already lost. Pack it up folks, its over.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It is idealism. It is nationalism. However, striving towards something we'll never get to, doesn't mean it wouldnt bring improvement.

I do think its somewhat un-American to serve only yourself.

Once again, you're supporting why AA and social welfare programs are both feasible and necessary.

Semantics leads you to debate the whole "demanding to be helped" and "forced to help" thing. That's a neither here nor there debate because most people in need aren't so much demanding it based on their inadequacies but expecting it based on the idealism and nationalism that you typed about. "Forced to help" is like saying we're forced to do most things in this country through taxes and laws. If you want an anarchy or complete free will then leave America and find a tiny island off the coast.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Our country is not our government, if thats how you think, then wow, we're worse off than I thought. America's strength is its people, always has been, always will be.

Now I'll get into the real idealism, but our country certainly is our government, or more to the point our government is our people. That's the essense of representative democracy. The people, through their elected representatives, govern themselves. If those elected representatives are not doing the will of those who elected them, then the electorate should elect someone else.

Sometimes I think the biggest crisis facing this country is that we have bought into the mindset that we are governed by others rather than accepting the responsibility of governing ourselves.

[/idealism]