Michigan voters ban affirmative action

[AKA_Monet]

Pike2001--

What are you really trying to say? Do you live in Michigan? And does the elimination of AA directly affect you?

Have you been displaced by any person of color, sex or disability for access and opportunity?

I just cannot get out of my head when I heard Mrs. Betty Shabazz speak. She kept saying "you MUST read the 1965 Civil Rights Act if you say you are for liberation...

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Pike2001--

What are you really trying to say? Do you live in Michigan? And does the elimination of AA directly affect you?

Have you been displaced by any person of color, sex or disability for access and opportunity?

I just cannot get out of my head when I heard Mrs. Betty Shabazz speak. She kept saying "you MUST read the 1965 Civil Rights Act if you say you are for liberation...

Yeah, i'm from Michigan. I didn't vote to ban AA, and as far as I know, it has never affected me. I'm not too in tune with HR or hiring practices, but EEO and AA always confused me in the sense that they somewhat contradicted each other. I wondered if AA was even necessary because we have EEO, which protects individuals of all backgrounds from discriminatory hiring practices.

[shinerbock]

AKA, i still don't get the whole "if it doesn't affect you, you shouldn't care," attitude. So if white on black racism doesn't affect me, I guess I shouldn't care about that either.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

AKA, i still don't get the whole "if it doesn't affect you, you shouldn't care," attitude. So if white on black racism doesn't affect me, I guess I shouldn't care about that either.

I don't care what you think, period...

Now with that being said, I am not asking a question of emotion and wondering how people feel about it.

What I am asking is "what is/are your experience(s) with the relevant question"?

If you have never been overtly discriminated against, then how would you know what the problem is? Especially if you are not visualizing it everyday or you actually live in the midst of the problem...

Until the United States solve the issues with poverty, then we will never get beyond equal rights and protections as asked by the Feds.

[shinerbock]

Who is supposed to "deal" with poverty?

[Phasad1913]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Who is supposed to "deal" with poverty?

A whole lot of people...INCLUDING the federal government.

[shinerbock]

What exactly is the federal government going to do? Please tell.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I don't care what you think, period...

Now with that being said, I am not asking a question of emotion and wondering how people feel about it.

What I am asking is "what is/are your experience(s) with the relevant question"?

If you have never been overtly discriminated against, then how would you know what the problem is? Especially if you are not visualizing it everyday or you actually live in the midst of the problem...

I can always count on you.

For the record, you continue to ask these (usually white) people on GC about their experiences with these issues. Are you waiting for some groundbreaking information that will make you more receptive to their opinions and experiences? I highly doubt that many if any of the whites who choose to post in such threads will have a tangible experience that they want to share with you. Some might not have a tangible experience at all and others might not want to make themselves vulnerable to being told their experience doesn't count for some reason.

But on the flip side of the whole "you wouldn't understand because of XYZ" stance:

Does every racial and ethnic minority experience discrimination directly. Indirectly? Do "we" get knowledge and understanding of such things via osmosis? Do all of "us" know and understand?

A lot of racial and ethnic minorities are not "overtly discriminated against" as far as they know and do not consciously "visualize it everyday or actually live in the midst." The intersection of race, class, and gender makes it such that we are not monolithic groups who can all relate to an assumed group experience. My race and gender top the list of socially relevant things I will have in common with a poor black women. However, we might experience racism and sexism differently. We certainly experience social class/classism differently since we don't have that in common. But instead of one of our experiences being placed above the other or deemed irrelevant, it's important to share and learn.

[shinerbock]

Yeah, you could term me a conservative. My problem is not with the government helping people to get back on their feet, its with people EXPECTING that. I think social programs have a history of discouraging personal responsibility of both those needing such programs, and the rest of us who don't. I just hate the idea that our government, or our well off citizens, "owe" anyone anything. Ideally, what I'd like to see is minimum government social programs, with increased emphasis on religious and charitable organization work. From a Christian standpoint, I think that government involvement in this area is allowing Christians to slack off on their responsibilities. I also think that the government's complete failure in the arena of social programs has turned those who could help away from doing so, because of things like incredibly high tax burdens and little restrictions on aid. It would require some time and a complete societal change to fix the system to how I would like to see it, but lets be honest, the government will never be able to fix the poverty problem. The only way we'll fix it is to put the responsibility on private organizations and individual Americans, and emphasize to those in poverty that while they may be given the tools, they'll have to put in the work.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, you could term me a conservative. My problem is not with the government helping people to get back on their feet, its with people EXPECTING that. I think social programs have a history of discouraging personal responsibility of both those needing such programs, and the rest of us who don't. I just hate the idea that our government, or our well off citizens, "owe" anyone anything. Ideally, what I'd like to see is minimum government social programs, with increased emphasis on religious and charitable organization work. From a Christian standpoint, I think that government involvement in this area is allowing Christians to slack off on their responsibilities. I also think that the government's complete failure in the arena of social programs has turned those who could help away from doing so, because of things like incredibly high tax burdens and little restrictions on aid. It would require some time and a complete societal change to fix the system to how I would like to see it, but lets be honest, the government will never be able to fix the poverty problem. The only way we'll fix it is to put the responsibility on private organizations and individual Americans, and emphasize to those in poverty that while they may be given the tools, they'll have to put in the work.

Thanks for your candid response. It's not about "fixing" the poverty problem because the world is too dynamic to assume that a few years of social programs will fix any social ill. As long as we have capitalism, globalization, and large sums of money going to establish democracy in other nations, the U.S. government benefits more by having a huge disjuncture between the haves and have nots.

Shouldn't taxpaying citizens expect for the government to provide safetynets? The poor, which includes the people who are between jobs and the working poor, still pay taxes. Didn't the nonpoor who fell on bad times after 9/11 expect the U.S. government to assist them with certain social welfare programs? If paying taxes and being citizens of this great land don't lead to certain expectations, what does?

If you look at the history of social welfare programs especially those dating back to the early 20th century, it was never about dismissing personal responsibility for the poor and nonpoor. The government simply took up the slack for the poor and nonpoor when times of war or economic depression hit. Even today, the average person on welfare is of the working poor or has lost a job and gone back on welfare. No people in their right minds will not do for themselves just because they think the government will do for them once the bureaucratic red tape clears. The stereotypical poor person who'd rather sit around waiting for a paycheck is a small percentage as is the welfare mother with tons of children. Even people who are considered "middle class" and upper middle class live paycheck to paycheck because their class status is based on income and not wealth. They don't realize how close they are to the edge until times like 9/11 hit.

The well-off citizens who comprise the top 5% didn't get there on their own. They got help along the way in the form of government wealthfare programs and tax cuts, as well as stepping on the heads of the less well-off on the way to the top. This isn't a pure meritocracy and if you were to tell the well-off that the government was providing no more incentives or safety nets for them and their corporations, they'd flip and contact some politicians.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Pike2001--

What are you really trying to say? Do you live in Michigan? And does the elimination of AA directly affect you?

Have you been displaced by any person of color, sex or disability for access and opportunity?

I just cannot get out of my head when I heard Mrs. Betty Shabazz speak. She kept saying "you MUST read the 1965 Civil Rights Act if you say you are for liberation...

How has AA helped you?

[shinerbock]

DSTS, how is it feasible. Its not working now, so tell me your plan. America is not what it is because of our government, its because of our people. There is opportunity here, and it doesn't start or end with the US government.

Basically, what I'm interested in is how the government is going to help people in poverty, and who is going to pay for it. I think I probably know the answer to the second part.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

DSTS, how is it feasible. Its not working now, so tell me your plan. America is not what it is because of our government, its because of our people. There is opportunity here, and it doesn't start or end with the US government.

Basically, what I'm interested in is how the government is going to help people in poverty, and who is going to pay for it. I think I probably know the answer to the second part.

We currently have safety nets. Combatting poverty is not only about having safety nets but also challenging the class pyramid formation.

LOL. America is what it is because of our government. We haven't been without a government for hundreds of years. The opportunities here most certainly begin and end with the government. Even wealthy people know that. That doesn't mean that the government completely controls the people's drive for success but the government provides certain incentives for success and lack thereof. It's how the status quo is upheld.

Everyone's going to pay for it. The poor pay taxes too. We all pay the same percentage. Of course those with more money will pay more in the end. That's okay because they get all sorts of tax breaks and tax writeoffs. They will survive. Trust.

[PiKA2001]

you really can't help everyone. It would be great to eliminate poverty but it's never going to happen.

[shinerbock]

Sigh, I just can't deal with that mindset. "Its ok, you have money, don't worry about it..." Yeah, we'll live, but that doesn't make it right. Affirmative Action probably won't ruin my life, but it doesn't make it right. I'm also amazed at how people just assume that the upper classes are so deeply involved in tax shelters and write-offs that the high bracket doesn't affect them. Go to an upper middle class neighborhood and ask those people how it feels to work for the government from Jan-May every year.

Our country is not our government, if thats how you think, then wow, we're worse off than I thought. America's strength is its people, always has been, always will be. Do you honestly think the government is how people survived during the great depression? No, they survived because their fellow man helped them out. We're so out of touch with what made America great, I'm beginning to fear its lost. Its not our government who sacrifice their lives and their careers to fight for our country, its our individual citizens. Not to be morbid, but sometimes I think the lack of adversity most Americans have to go through is making this country weak, because its people are completely unprepared to sustain it. Thankfully, there are still some people around to instill those values in some of us. Note, thats not a shot at you, its a shot at Americans in general.