Colleges With The Most Students In Fraternities: US News

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

It's absolutely shameful, but for the most part, people who go to those over the top evangelical schools aren't trying to be in the real world. They're trying to avoid anyone who isn't just like they are and who doesn't believe the exact same way they believe.

Personally, I am grateful for the self-segregation. I have known some folks in my life who believe that they need to pray over every single decision they make: i.e., stopping in the middle of Wal-Mart (where else?) to decide whether or not to buy bubble bath. It's tiresome. I've never thought that God was too concerned one way or the other about bubbles in anyone's bath. I figure God's more of a take bubbles or leave them kind of fellow.

Pot meet kettle. You are being as absolutely shameful and dismissive of others as you claim they are.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

You call it the Dark Ages and they call it protecting what is theirs. Colleges and universities find ways to do that all of the time, especially private schools. Good for them.

Can you give other examples of this? I'm not doubting you; I'm honestly curious. I was really taken aback by the whole thing, as nobody has ever told me "you can't apply to this job because you are Jewish" before. While I realize they are private, they certainly get government money, and that seems a strange exception to me.

As I noted above (and you did, too), not all are like this. I spoke with another evangelical Christian university that was more interested in hearing my thoughts on their values than my specific theology. Certainly, I understand that some schools emphasize things like social responsibility, or volunteerism, or community, etc., and they want faculty who fit with those things. That's really different, in my mind, from "you can't have this job unless you believe in Jesus".

For example, are HBCUs allowed to make a blanket statement that they hire only African American faculty? Or do they seek out faculty of all races who understand the history and roles of HBCUs?

[AlphaFrog]

So, DBB, would you be opposed to a Jewish affiliated university requiring all staff to be Jewish? I wouldn't. Judaism is complex (to me, as an outsider) and I feel that if someone wanted to attend a university that emphasized Judaism they wouldn't want to be taught by a bunch of Gentiles that don't understand the culture and religion.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Are they funded largely by the government?

"Well-rounded education" is subjective and relative. The students who attend that school are doing so for reasons beyond being competitive in the world market.

If they have students who are receiving Pell Grants, Federal Student Loans, etc., then I would say probably so.

Cosign point 2.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Can you give other examples of this? I'm not trying to argue; I'm honestly curious. I was really taken aback by the whole thing, as nobody has ever told me "you can't apply to this job because you are Jewish" before. While I realize they are private, they certainly get government money, and that seems a strange exception to me.

For example, Research I institutions will not hire faculty who are not research focused. If you are primarily interested in teaching and connecting with students, you will be frowned upon at many Research I institutions.

This may not frighten people and make people feel discriminated against but the faculty who would qualify for most Research I employment across the country tend to be of a particular race and ethnicity, socioeconomic status, gender; and religion and sexual orientation are also strongly linked at some schools. In other words, you have to mesh well with the purpose of the institution, mesh well with the faculty, mesh with the study body, and be able to do what needs to be done with little backtalk. This is not formally stated but it still is what it is.

Technically, it isn't because you are Jewish but because you are not an evangelical Christian. Not every Christian would be hired by this institution depending on the circumstances.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

For example, are HBCUs allowed to make a blanket statement that they hire only African American faculty? Or do they seek out faculty of all races who understand the history and roles of HBCUs?

The average HBCU's faculty is majority non-Black. I think that is deplorable for a number of reasons. It is good to hire non-Blacks but to allow faculty to be overwhelming white is horrendous. White faculty have plenty of colleges and universities to choose from.

Across HBCUs, faculty are not required to understand the history and roles of HBCUs.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Pot meet kettle. You are being as absolutely shameful and dismissive of others as you claim they are.

When you know people who have to pray over what value meal to order at McDonald's, it gets old. I'm not making this up. I respect their right to believe what they believe, but I do not have to be a part of it. I'm all for blessing a meal, but I do believe that God gave us brains for a reason. YMMV.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

So, DBB, would you be opposed to a Jewish affiliated university requiring all staff to be Jewish? I wouldn't. Judaism is complex (to me, as an outsider) and I feel that if someone wanted to attend a university that emphasized Judaism they wouldn't want to be taught by a bunch of Gentiles that don't understand the culture and religion.

It depends what you are teaching. In a seminary or Yeshiva, obviously the faculty are all going to be of that faith.

In the middle would be topics like humanities. I could see a Jewish university wanting to emphasize the role of Jews in certain topics. However, if someone was knowledgeable about the Jewish experience in, say, world history, it should not matter whether they are actually a Jew.

I'm not sure, though, how you would "emphasize Judaism" while teaching business or mathematics or information technology.

And does the janitor need to be Jewish? And the receptionist? And the financial aid coordinator?

(incidentally, if you were to open a university in the US and hire only Jews, you would end up hiring very, very few non-whites, and you'd end up discriminating based on race whether you had intended to or not)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

When you know people who have to pray over what value meal to order at McDonald's, it gets old. I'm not making this up. I respect their right to believe what they believe, but I do not have to be a part of it. I'm all for blessing a meal, but I do believe that God gave us brains for a reason. YMMV.

Not really.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

For example, Research I institutions will not hire faculty who are not research focused. If you are primarily interested in teaching and connecting with students, you will be frowned upon at many Research I institutions.

This may not frighten people and make people feel discriminated against but the faculty who would qualify for most Research I employment across the country tend to be of a particular race and ethnicity, socioeconomic status, gender; and religion and sexual orientation are also strongly linked at some schools. In other words, you have to mesh well with the purpose of the institution, mesh well with the faculty, mesh with the study body, and be able to do what needs to be done with little backtalk. This is not formally stated but it still is what it is.

Yes, I totally understand that things other than qualifications come into play in the hiring process. It is very unfortunate. Many schools have policies attempting to combat these things, but it is an uphill battle, in practice. That said, at every R1 I can think of, if someone was told they were not hired because of their religion, they would run screaming to the EEOC.

Honestly, this campus clearly wouldn't have been a good fit for me, and it's good that I found that out early on. I just can't, for the life of me, figure out what my belief system has to do with my ability to adjunct lecture in an undergraduate math class.

(Thanks for the info about HBCUs. I find it very surprising.)

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Not really.

In your opinion.

I wouldn't speak for you; I would request that you not do so for me.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

When you know people who have to pray over what value meal to order at McDonald's, it gets old. I'm not making this up. I respect their right to believe what they believe, but I do not have to be a part of it. I'm all for blessing a meal, but I do believe that God gave us brains for a reason. YMMV.

Your anecdote is somewhat irrelevant the the discussion as statistically*, 90% of professed Christians don't live any differently than "the rest of the world". The extremists are the rare exception, not the rule. Probably even most the 10% in the study I read aren't this extreme.

*Study I am referring to measured things like divorce rates, pre-marital sex, porn, cheating, crimes, etc. among self-identified Christians vs. Non-Christian.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Yes, I totally understand that things other than qualifications come into play in the hiring process. It is very unfortunate. Many schools have policies attempting to combat these things, but it is an uphill battle, in practice. That said, at every R1 I can think of, if someone was told they were not hired because of their religion, they would run screaming to the EEOC.

It would not be so overt. If these things were so overt then EEOC claims would not be so difficult.

You were told (I assume told?) about religion because of the nature of the institution. There were other reasons beyond religion but religion was the defining factor. Just as R1s have other reasons beyond research but research is the defining factor.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Honestly, this campus clearly wouldn't have been a good fit for me, and it's good that I found that out early on. I just can't, for the life of me, figure out what my belief system has to do with my ability to adjunct lecture in an undergraduate math class.

They knew that.

Adjuncts and visiting instructors are only hired on a need basis. If we don't need them or do not see a good fit, they don't get hired. And they can be quickly non-renewed if necessary. If fulltime faculty have to meet certain formal and informal criteria, please believe that adjuncts and visiting instructors are considered much more easily found and easily replaced. For instance, an adjunct who is nonChristian in that context may feel less of a responsibility to the institution and therefore may feel free to expouse certain viewpoints...even in an undergrad math class. It happens all of the time with adjuncts, VIs, and TAs. Contracted fulltime associate and assistant professors (including those who are tenure track for institutions with tenure) are more often than not expected to have more of a vested interest in the institution. It is easier to hold someone accountable when they have that fulltime contract and vested interest beyond doing parttime work for a paycheck.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

In your opinion.

I wouldn't speak for you; I would request that you not do so for me.

I will speak for you. You just ridiculed something. If you respect something, do not ridicule it.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

You asked, I answered.

"Okay" is too surface level.

Sorry, I edited my post when I thought further about what you are saying.

I guess there is really no difference between a school saying "sorry, no Jews", and saying "we take everyone" and then throwing my application promptly in the trash behind closed doors.

Point taken.

[DubaiSis]

I don't respect their right to make a bunch of Westboro Baptist Church leaders, and I think it is worth researching to make sure no federal funding, including loans and grants of any kind go to anybody who would attend a school that discriminates based on religious fervor. Yes, they have the right to do it, but if they are getting ANY money from me, I want it stopped, and right now. I would not be concerned about this with single sex institutions or the HBCUs because their goals are different, and IMHO, valid. But unfortunately, if it was all or nothing, I'd have to go with nothing. The all-women and HBCU schools can find the funding somewhere, just as the deeply conservative Christian schools can.