Is hazing the best way?

[djpsk21]

DrPhil....sarcasm not appreciated. I am really trying to make a difference here and be an agent of change. If you can't be constructive, then please don't waste my time by replying

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

DrPhil....sarcasm not appreciated. I am really trying to make a difference here and be an agent of change. If you can't be constructive, then please don't waste my time by replying

Or you can not waste your time by reading and replying.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

DrPhil....sarcasm not appreciated. I am really trying to make a difference here and be an agent of change. If you can't be constructive, then please don't waste my time by replying

What a busy time you have when my reply is wasting it. Don't be so easily knocked off of your horse. You will find it very difficult to transition from rhetoric to change.

[lucgreek]

I'd rather not see this turn off topic into a bunch of useless/sarcastic replies, since there is a lot of potential for the thread, so I'll try to steer the ship back before we head into the iceberg:

OP: Are you the only one who wants change? Get a group of other like-minded people together before telling your chapter why they need to change. If you have a group of people already supporting you, it will make it harder for people ingrained in the hazing mindset to say, "Well that's only one person in the chapter, who cares?"

If your brothers are still all for hazing, you should speak with your advisor and regional director.

Like other have said, change needs to happen slowly otherwise your chapter may implode on itself. But if the hazing is incredibly risky/potential for bodily harm or death/risk for your charter to be taken away, you need to get rid of that stuff ASAP.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

If your brothers are still all for hazing, you should speak with your advisor and regional director.

Yes, do this and assure being socially ostracized for not only your remaining years in college, but pretty much any alumni event you attend in the future.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

I'd rather not see this turn off topic into a bunch of useless/sarcastic replies, since there is a lot of potential for the thread, so I'll try to steer the ship back before we head into the iceberg:

And you could've typed your post without this.

This thread is practically useless and threads like this encourage people to come to GC for things that aren't GC material. The OP has a national organization with a national standard that most likely provides assistance with how to address such issues. Yet, he is on GC for advice which is never a good idea. Either way, he needs to understand that there are and will always be people who believe that hazing is the best answer. If my saying that sarcastically gets a response then he has a difficult road ahead of him. He has yet to show his brothers that hazing isn't the best answer because he is still searching for even the most basic advice on how to do so. His difficulty is linked to the fact that it isn't solely his job to show his brothers that hazing isn't the best answer. He needs to search for the most basic answers to this question outside of GC and get assistance outside of GC by contacting representatives from his organization.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

I'd rather not see this turn off topic into a bunch of useless/sarcastic replies, since there is a lot of potential for the thread, so I'll try to steer the ship back before we head into the iceberg:

Too late.

This very response opens the door to useless and sarcastic replies. Like I told the OP when he went all huffy over what Dr Phil said, ignore it.

That separates folks that are serious for answers to folks who just want to start threads so they can be center of attention.

[DrPhil]

Yes, hazing is the best way. Thanks for asking.

[djpsk21]

Thank you EVERYONE for your replies. They have been really helpful so far! I guess the biggest hurdle I am facing right now is that brothers want to keep the "spirit" of the hazing but are starting to understand that they shouldn't haze. However, they still have that "tick" that says "we went through it...why should they get a free pass...they should earn their way into this chapter". I want to try to keep that same spirit while eliminating the negativity.

I have ideas such as having them complete a project or addition to the house, as a class, before they can initiate. A common cause they can come together for, depend on each other to complete and must have finished it "on time" so there is still the pressure of a deadline. This can be an addition in or outside of the house, but something where they are also able to leave their mark.

I want them to have required study hours, weekly quizzes on history and fraternity information, etc. I want to build them up instead of them being torn down. How is them doing a brothers laundry or washing cars being an "addition" to the house? How is it helping them as a person? How does it relate to the fraternities values and principles?

I have a team of guys who are on my side. However, as I mentioned previously, they still want the new guys to respect the house and the letters as much as they do and unfortunately, the only way they know is through hazing because that is how they were brought in.

I have people willing to support change. I have the national program for my chapter, but I am seeking others opinions, ideas, etc so I can truly create a phenomenal program. This is a unique opportunity that I have to really implement change. I want to do it the best possible way instead of making a change that is just "good enough" for now and then has to be continuously updated. As I am sure we can all agree, change the window opportunity for change only opens every now and then so now that there is an opening, I really want to take advantage of it.

Can anyone share what their pledgeship was like? What kind of stuff did you do with your class? Was it just meetings about the fraternity and history? Were there tests? Does anyone know of any team building exercises that are useful?

I am seeking help from GC because I value the knowledge of others. I know what my National HQ wants me to do, I am curious to what others have done. That way, maybe I can make a good program even better. Further, maybe some ideas can come out on this forum that can help others that are having similar issues.

Again, thank you all for your replies so far. I look forward to reading some more insightful thoughts and on to make this very important change.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

Can anyone share what their pledgeship was like? What kind of stuff did you do with your class? Was it just meetings about the fraternity and history? Were there tests? Does anyone know of any team building exercises that are useful?

I am seeking help from GC because I value the knowledge of others. I know what my National HQ wants me to do, I am curious to what others have done. That way, maybe I can make a good program even better. Further, maybe some ideas can come out on this forum that can help others that are having similar issues.

I'm sorry, but what others did during their programs is irrelevant. If your organization has a system in place, you need to try to move toward using that. I could tell you that my class did sheep herding because it was related to our ritual, but that wouldn't help you.

Just try to reinforce what your I/HQ already has in place.

Good luck.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

I want them to have required study hours, weekly quizzes on history and fraternity information, etc. I want to build them up instead of them being torn down.

This is where we are disconnecting. You are talking in idealistic terms, and I am asking you to think about the practical aspects of the program you want to put in place. Rules you set now will only work if they are honored by the chapter in practice as well as in principle.

Required study hours are considered hazing by many definitions- and I personally do not think they are a good idea. Where will study hours take place? If you have a pledge who is doing fine on grades and gets most of his work done in labs, do you want to force him to come to study hours in addition to what is already working for/expected of him? If he comes- will the environment be conducive to the one in which he personally works best? You are talking about putting structure and rules into place- and you have to consider EVERY scenario that could come up since rules have to be enforced equally and making exceptions for certain people in practice as exceptions come up will not work.

And on the quizzes, what are the consequences if someone is failing quizzes and not learning the lore? It is one thing to say pledges need to "learn the lore", but how do you make sure it happens? How much is learning the lore an absolute requirement versus the attempt being a symbol of someone's serious interest? What if you have an A+ pledge who just does not have the time to be a whiz at the lore due to his school schedule?

You are speaking to ideals- the question now is what are the practical standards you which to enforce, and how will they be enforced? This is not an easy question, but the answer is there if you can slow down and really think through the mechanics of what you are trying to achieve.

What are you trying to achieve? What about your chapter gives you concern about how pledgeship is conducted? What did you personally feel about your own pledgeship? How did that differ from what your pledge brothers feel about it? Where do you want to go with this initiative?

[AGDee]

I think you must have had some rough experiences with required study hours, EE-BO. We require study hours for all of our members and, while chapters can determine the number/type, generally they have a sliding scale, based on GPA and computer lab hours count. There is a lot of flexibility in how they can be set up, from study groups for members who are in the same classes/majors. You can pair up an upperclassman with a new member/associate/whatever your group calls them who has the same major. You can set up tutoring opportunities so someone can say "I'm struggling with ____, who can help?" You can get bigs brothers and little brothers to spend some time on academics together.

I'm not a big fan of weekly quizzes, but I'm more of a fan of trivia game type methods of learning the "lore". Maybe a lot of this stuff is too girly for fraternity men but I've seen some really creative stuff like "what would this founder's facebook page look like?" to learn about the founders. Or, make it more businesslike and created a LinkedIn for each founder.

You can earn letters without being hazed. There can be expectations that membership is based on. You can try to take current traditions and change them up slightly so as not to "lose" traditions, but make them less risky.

Ultimately, you have to have buy in from the chapter or nothing will work. Getting THEIR ideas is a good way to get them to support the program.

[33girl]

Too often (esp if other Greeks are doing them) study hours at the library or other campus buildings turn into social hours. There isn't always a place conducive to studying in the house.

Regardless of national rules, the way I determine hazing is whether an activity has ANYTHING to do with learning things about the national org, the local chapter or the national and local Greek community - or is it something that they're just being made to do for the hell of it, so the initiated members can have "power" over them? Unless your founders include Jack Daniels, Jack LaLanne and the Marquis de Sade, that lets out drinking, physical hazing and beating. OP - maybe look at your pledge program in that way and then go from there.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Unless your founders include Jack Daniels, Jack LaLanne and the Marquis de Sade

Best. Fraternity. Evar.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Best. Fraternity. Evar.

LOL.

However, for national organizations, there is no such thing as "regardless of national rules." Generally speaking, collegiate chapter evaluations as they pertain to hazing should be based on the national GLO's policies and procedures, the school's anti-hazing policies, and any laws that are in place.