No place for average PNMs?

[RhoGamma09]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Having a rec is something that's just standard at some schools. It's nothing that guarantees you a bid or anything. It's similar to having a certain GPA. Girls know that in order to do well, you need it. It's just standard procedure (along with registration, grades, and everything else).

Also, at many schools where recs are needed, there are close to 1,000 PNMs going through, and having recs helps to provide extra info about girls.

Something you will figure out if you stick around here long enough is that every school is different. The way another school functions does not make it better or worse.

Okay, yeah, I understood most of that already, but you did clear it up for me so thank you! I was just most confused about the comment about "ignoring national policy", I wasnt sure if the poster was saying that she thinks it is and that we ignore it...or...I dunno, I didnt understand what she meant by the post.

We definitely dont have even 500+ girls going through, so we dont need them, but who knows, if we ever grew enough, we might move into needing recs!

[angels&angles]

Also, sometimes members have their own reasons to cut a girl. I have a very good friend who was released from all chapters. This girls is cute, incredibly smart (I believe she was 2nd in the class, pre-med, all top honors), and nice. However, she was very religious and a little awkward. By the time we graduated I think any sorority would be blessed to have her, but apparently during pre-rush activities she really turned some members off, with her talk of religion and her over enthusiasm.

I can imagine her mother coming on here to say "What happened?" because the girl IS pretty, smart, talented and nice. She just didn't make a good impression on THOSE girls, even if she might have made a good impression on others.

Most of the other girls I know who got cross-cut had reputation or alcohol problems (again not something their mothers probably knew about). The rest all had choices and refused them. It's a pet peeve of mine when girls say they "got released from recruitment" or "cut by all the chapters," when they really had a bid or invitation to one or two groups. I don't know why ANYONE would rather say that they were undesirable to all groups rather than say something like "I decided sorority life wasn't for me right now," or something. I understand not wanting to be a member of the chapter if you really didn't click with the girls, but why paint it as them rejecting you rather than a reasoned decision you made on your own?

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by angels&angles

I can imagine her mother coming on here to say "What happened?" because the girl IS pretty, smart, talented and nice. She just didn't make a good impression on THOSE girls, even if she might have made a good impression on others.

Exactly!

I often wonder when I read these stories and think to myself, "wow, I didn't realize that God created so many perfect creatures".

The bottom line is that sometimes a person can rub others the wrong way and with initial impressions, it can blow your chances. Over the years, I have interviewed thousands of people for jobs and hired hundreds. Many times when I didn't hire a person, someone would say, "I know Jane So-And-So. Once you get to know her, she is really a nice person". Well, Jane So-And-So needs to realize that a first impression is sometimes your only impression. Jane may have said something without thinking, implied something or it was 'how' she said something that turned someone off.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by angels&angles

Why paint it as them rejecting you rather than a reasoned decision you made on your own?

Simple.

If you paint it as being rejected, then you can blame the system and talk about how "tough it is."

It's alot easier for a PNM to say "recruitment at ___ sucks, it's all about who you know. I heard that 800 girls were cut this year after first rounds! It was sooo brutal!" than it is to admit to dropping out of the process and not giving it a chance.

There are quite a few times I've seen a post saying "I went bidless!" only to have the PNM come back (after someone asks) and say "Well I did get one invite to XYZ but I didn't see myself there."

PNMs are certainly allowed to accept/decline any invites they get, or drop out of recruitment. However, I feel like if you do, you forfeit the right to complain about how the system works.

[Just interested]

This is going to be a great thread! I can't to hear everyone's thoughts.

[APhiAnna]

To be honest too, sometimes the advice given on here is more focused on what an alumni/advisor would like to hear in recruitment rather than what a 19 year old sophomore is actually going to want to hear. For example, I agree it's good to ask questions about the philanthropy, GPA, etc. But if it's been two parties and all she's done is ask questions about the chapter, she's gained a lot of information about the sorority but the sorority has gained none about her. They may be stuck...sitting around thinking, "well, she's obviously interested, but can I see hanging out with this girl in my sweatpants around the TV? Can I see myself wanting to be her big? Will she be fun to be with at socials?". So I think it is REALLY important to make sure the actives are learning as much about you as you are learning about them...GPA and community service are great, but at the end of the day we want a sister and at some schools EVERY PNM coming through has incredible GPA, activities and community service.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

To be honest too, sometimes the advice given on here is more focused on what an alumni/advisor would like to hear in recruitment rather than what a 19 year old sophomore is actually going to want to hear. For example, I agree it's good to ask questions about the philanthropy, GPA, etc. But if it's been two parties and all she's done is ask questions about the chapter, she's gained a lot of information about the sorority but the sorority has gained none about her. They may be stuck...sitting around thinking, "well, she's obviously interested, but can I see hanging out with this girl in my sweatpants around the TV? Can I see myself wanting to be her big? Will she be fun to be with at socials?". So I think it is REALLY important to make sure the actives are learning as much about you as you are learning about them...GPA and community service are great, but at the end of the day we want a sister and at some schools EVERY PNM coming through has incredible GPA, activities and community service.

This.

Conversation is SO important.

At the end of the day, if all PNMs are pretty much equal in terms of grades, recs, and other tangibles, the girls who are going to get the invites are the ones that the members can actually SEE themselves hanging out with in real life. The only way members can discern that is through CONVERSATION.

So while it is good to want to talk to sorority members about the sorority, PNMs need to remember that at the end of the day, that member needs to know about YOU as a PERSON and whether she can see you as a friend and part of the chapter.

With that said, I think conversation comes into play in a lot of these "my daughter didn't get a bid" stories. Mom comes here and says "I don't know what happened, she has a 4.0, was a cheer captain, and had a full slate of recs."

What I think parents fail to understand is that they WEREN'T THERE to see the actual INTERACTIONS between her daughter and the sorority members. It is entirely possible that she was AMAZING on paper, but the conversations just weren't there.

These ARE just my opinions though peeps, so feel free to disagree with me.

[RhoGamma09]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

To be honest too, sometimes the advice given on here is more focused on what an alumni/advisor would like to hear in recruitment rather than what a 19 year old sophomore is actually going to want to hear. For example, I agree it's good to ask questions about the philanthropy, GPA, etc. But if it's been two parties and all she's done is ask questions about the chapter, she's gained a lot of information about the sorority but the sorority has gained none about her. They may be stuck...sitting around thinking, "well, she's obviously interested, but can I see hanging out with this girl in my sweatpants around the TV? Can I see myself wanting to be her big? Will she be fun to be with at socials?". So I think it is REALLY important to make sure the actives are learning as much about you as you are learning about them...GPA and community service are great, but at the end of the day we want a sister and at some schools EVERY PNM coming through has incredible GPA, activities and community service.

This is really important. I am a living example of that, I went through, and I knew a lot about my first choice sorority, so I didnt have to ask really many questions, and I was relaxed and talking and we just had fun. At the other houses, I didnt really know what they were about, and I (always have a lot of questions anyways!) got so into finding out about them, I forgot to actually make an impression.

I did fine and I got my first choice, but yes, there was a huge difference in the way I acted between the first choice and all the others! So this is something to consider! I know that I made a couple key "mistakes" in maximizing how many chapters I got invited back to, but I was one of the lucky ones and even though I kind of suicided, I was a perfect fit my for my first choice and got a bid.....for many girls though, it doesnt work out so well, and they honestly mightve just not made an impression, or blew off all the wrong houses.

[baci]

I love that this thread was originated and it is interesting to see what people say from all over the U.S. I have to be truly honest here from the experience I have at competitive Florida universities. This experience comes from being in an org, helping behind the scenes, and staying close to young ladies who are active members.

It is sad to admit this and actually put it in print. It is all about looks as most important. You have to have the look that the org is seeking! There are many girls who get a pass on everything else if they have "the look". These orgs want to stay at the top and looks are the key. On campus, the student population ranks top chapters by looks. At times, people will say "are you asking me to rank the top chapter overall when it comes to service,activities, grades etc. or just top?" I laugh when I hear this. It doesn't matter if you are in state or out.

I have heard this numerous times in the last few years - "I met and got to know some amazing young girls during recruitment, but they didn't have the looks. We had to cut them." Then I hear - "I met gorgeous girls who lacked conversation and what have you, but we voted them through." What does that tell you?

Honestly, you need the GPA, service, activities, leadership etc. because others will have it, but if you don't have the looks the rest won't take you. (pretty much most girls have the stats behind them or they would not have been admitted to the university in the first place) Let's face it, there are many girls with average looks and they won't make the cuts no matter what their resumes look like. Even the lower tier groups are trying to gain the best looking girls to pull their chapter up.

This is defintely what I know in Florida. Maybe elsewhere it is different, but if your genes were not as kind to you - you won't have as much success as you had hoped. Well, there may be a few exceptions, but I do know for fact that many sad PNMs have faced this and they have amazing stats behind them, converse well, and have connections. They have been cut by even the bottom chapters.

I always say to PNMs - remember your peers judge you and it isn't always what you bring to the table! It is about what they see. It breaks my heart, but that is life.

[APhiAnna]

To be fair too, what you are hearing from nervous freshmen PNMs is never going to be true. Girls in our own chapters have a hard enough time keeping it straight. If you ask any PNM at any school that suffered even minor cuts, I guarantee you they will tell you that they just went through the most competitive rush that XYZ University has EVER had. EVER. Obviously top tier ABC may have had a very good idea of who they want to pledge, but I guarantee you that, no matter what campus, there are many chapters who are much more open-minded. And really, do you honestly believe that "XYZ who hasn't made quota in 3 years" started the rush process saying "these 100 girls are the only ones we are interested in bidding and if you aren't already in-state and BFF with at least 3 girls then we will cut you?" No. They are going to be open-minded about EVERY PNM, but they are still going to want women that promote their chapter in a positive way so they can grow. So it's probably not that every single recruitment chair at every single chapter had it out for your since Day #1.

Just go give an example, these are reasons why I, my sisters or my friends at other schools/chapters released women that would fall into "good on paper, good picture, etc" categories. If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them until they did one of the following:
* Were you a complainer? "OMG, it's soooo hot...", "Haha sorry I'm sooo tired", "Yeah my roommate is kind of weird and lame", "The dorm food is sooo gross"...
* Did you rest on being shy and think that the burden was on the chapters to realize you'd be more outgoing starting three weeks in?
* Did you only bother getting recs for what your friend's sister's boyfriend told you were the three best sororities?
* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier? Top tier may not have wanted you, but would anybody else want a sister who acted bored either?
* Did you wear clothing in a color that made your normally beautiful skin look pasty? Was your dress silhouette more appropriate to 2003 than 2009?
* Did you talk about how much money you have? Nothing can make somebody look poorer than that...
* Did you only ask questions about the chapters GPA and philanthropy and housing points? We wanted a sister to have fun with too.
* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).
* Did you bring up God every sentence to an atheist? Did you roll your eyes when a sister mentioned that XYZ also has a Bible study?
* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni? Or did you even go so far as to leave the topless kegstand photo on Facebook?
* Were you an "eager beaver" who was trying too hard to be bubbly and "hug attacked" every other member you met?

There are SO many reasons why you may have had a bad rush even if you were average looking with a great GPA.

At the end of it though, blaming the sororities for your mistake will hinder you in life. Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

In the age of quota and RFM, I am having a hard time understanding how a PNM with nothing “wrong” with her except being out of state and/or not having recs can get cut from ALL chapters at a competitive campus. Note I am NOT talking about a PNM who gets cut by all chapters but one or two.

By nothing “wrong”, I mean this theoretical PNM is simply average (not poor) in the area of grades, involvement, looks, and conversation, and she does not have a reputation issue. Especially at academically competitive universities, the chances of a PNM looking poor on paper are slim because she wouldn't have been admitted to the university in the first place.

Quota is set to optimize the number of PNMs joining chapters and the number of chapters making quota. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

With RFM, the “top” chapters are forced to make the steepest cuts the first round, and the “bottom” chapters are advised to make minimal cuts throughout the process, cutting PNMs who do not meet their membership standards (poor grades, poor conversation/personality, poor personal presentation, etc). This optimizes the placement rate.

Even if this theoretical PNM is from out of state and/or does not have recs (read: unknown), “bottom” chapters have the luxury of not being forced to make steep cuts and therefore have time to get to know her through conversation.

Is there no place for a PNM who is average and unknown? I am not talking about “top 6” at UT or “Old Row” at Bama, etc. I know this may be treading into MS territory, but do “bottom” chapters at competitive schools cut PNMs when there seems to be “no reason” (none of the reasons discussed above) to cut her?

If there are a lot of PNMs getting cut for “no reason”, that’s usually when a Panhellenic looks to Extension.

Perhaps the PNMs/mothers of PNMs released by ALL chapters are simply not telling us on GC any “reason” they could have been cut. And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

im total lane swerving, but i feel like regardless of council this will apply.



while it's great to go into Rush with an optimistic view about one's PNM-ness, if youre not coming with something extra, who's going to remember you? and this is good or bad extra, which is why there are a small percentage at the "oh hayle to the naw" end and the "omg this girl fart smells like rainbows and sunshines, give her a bid now" ends--those PNMs had to have done something out of the ordinary to stand out. Or, on paper, they were so extraordinary (whether its 4.0/team captain or 2.5/general slacker) their fate was kinda written in the sand from the beginning.

i dont think you have a hard time understanding, i think you have a hard time believing and accepting it. especially when there are posters who are outright saying things like "if you're wearing a 5-year old dress or complain about the hear, its a wrap."

Having a "place" for "average PNMs" is like an place for average people in life in all situations-dating/relationships, classes/grades, promotions, etc. There's a place for the average but opportunity doesnt always knock, or as often. It's called "competitive" for a reason.

[myopicsunflower]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them

...or what you saw on their Facebook profile might have made given you reason to cut them.

* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier?

...or if you spoke rudely about ABC at XYZ's party because you "so knew" you were going XYZ.

* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).

O_O

Did this PNM pledge anywhere???

* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni?

This goes back to recs. Everyone knows that recs are important and that, at some schools, you need them for every house. But you want GOOD recs, and because alumnae send recs directly to chapters, you don't know if an alumna wrote a rec that said "This girl is a big bowl of awesome and would be a tremendous asset to your chapter" or a "no rec."

Hypothetical situations:

* You ask your math teacher to write a rec for you, because you've gotten good grades and have good rapport with her. Your teacher likes you well enough, but she has also caught wind of how you had a few weekend benders, and she's heard from teacher lunchroom talk about how you act with peers in other classes. As much as your math teacher likes you as a student, she may not think you are a fit for her sorority.

* You send your resume to the local Alumnae Panhellenic. Anna Alumna from XYZ doesn't know you personally, but she sees that you go to Local High School, and her friend's daughter went there. So Anna Alumna makes a phone call. Her friend's daughter may have had bad experiences with you, or she may have heard bad things about you. Anna Alumna is concerned. She may write a "no rec," or she may write one that is tentative. Either way, that rec is not a glowing one, and it could lead to a cut during rush.

Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

Absolutely.

[UGAalum94]

I think there are places for average PNMs but "average" isn't where a lot of us on the outside really think it is. Grade inflation and higher admission standards at some schools make a GPA that used to seem awesome only average and a list of activities that used to be dazzling only average.

So a girl who used to be average in GPA and activities is now actually below average for the campus but alumnae and parents may not realize it. And this is without getting in to how a PNMs reputation might not be "average" and adults might not know it.

I don't quite look at things like Baci does. I think looks are a component and will help a girl a lot if the other factors are all in place, but at my campus a girl who was "only" good looking probably would have been looking at middle chapters on down. For top chapters, you apparently needed looks, activities, GPA, awesome personality, and often a certain kind of family background. Sometime even average looking girls who were excellent people ended up in top chapters.

As far as the OP, once you take the aspect of grade and credential inflation out of the picture, I think the majority of girls getting bids are "average" for the campus. When I look at the girls I know who rush at UGA and Auburn, what separates out the PNMs who end up at top chapters from mid and low tier chapters ultimately comes down to high school popularity. I think it's mainly that the girls who are already at college want the most popular girls from their high schools but it may also be that the really popular girls know how to turn it out in social situations like rush.

[AGDee]

I would think some of this may have to do with who the PNM cuts early in her recruitment too. If there are 14 chapters and they have to go from 14-10-7-3, for example, it's possible that for second parties, 2 top chapters dropped the PNM and the PNM dropped the bottom 2 chapters to go to 10 parties. The next cuts, perhaps 2 more of the top chapters drop the PNM and the PNM drops the bottom 1, getting the middle 7 parties to attend. It's possible THEN that those middle 7, having to make major cuts before Pref would all cut the PNM. Therefore, there could have been 3 chapters that might have really liked and wanted her, but she cut them early on.

It's also possible that she lacked enthusiasm for those bottom chapters and the chapters could tell. You don't really want someone who doesn't want you, no matter how small you are.

[UGAalum94]

AGDee, what you describe is certainly possible and I think Carnation has observed that pattern in real life when she's talked about how it's actually better to get hard after first round than second, for those reasons.

But I'm still kind of skeptical like other people earlier in the thread. The number of girls completely cut out or dropped from recruitment is so small at the places it gets reported.

Your hypothetical scenario requires seven chapters to almost be at an even place in RFM or just that she be the most unlucky girl in the world to miss the bid list at every one but not get released earlier from some of the seven.

I think that some girls may truly "slip thorough the cracks" and get dropped even though there's nothing wrong with them, but I think it's far more likely that the majority of "average" PNMs get placed.