Baby tests positive for illegal drugs? Arrest the mom.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

You don't know anything.

You also need to get over your uninformed bigotry and research how people across socioeconomic status (with some exception for the independently wealthy) express being economically and mentally unprepared for children. Poor people are unfairly the representatives for something that is a societal and world problem.

Bullshit. Middle class people all over the world do just fine with their kids. It's an economic adjustment for almost everyone but they deal with it. The poor, on the other hand are excessively dependent on government wealth redistribution in order to make ends meet, and as mentioned earlier, still fail to take adequate care of the children, costing further billions of dollars. Paying a thousand dollars here and there to make sure some of those individuals stopped making babies that the public had to provide for would save huge sums of money. Considering that the first rule of getting out of a hole is to stop digging, something like this would certainly yield positive results.

I don't care if people go extinct (which will take a while with over 7 billion people and daily births and deaths) but I never said people should stop reproducing. I said no one is doing anyone a favor by reproducing.

Sure we do. Those of us who produce children who will go on to college and make something of themselves because they had good parents to teach them right from wrong, that hard work pays off, and to refrain from drugs/crime are producing the future workforce, the folks who might someday be funding our social security, etc. On the other hand, the poor are by and large producing our future prisoners and felons, future gang members, future meth manufacturers, etc. That's a lot of generalization, but gang membership and distribution of meth is not found in all socioeconomic cross sections of society at the same levels.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Bullshit. Middle class people all over the world do just fine with their kids. It's an economic adjustment for almost everyone but they deal with it.

Bullshit. And this is why people have silent struggles.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The poor, on the other hand are excessively dependent on government wealth redistribution in order to make ends meet, and as mentioned earlier, still fail to take adequate care of the children, costing further billions of dollars. Paying a thousand dollars here and there to make sure some of those individuals stopped making babies that the public had to provide for would save huge sums of money. Considering that the first rule of getting out of a hole is to stop digging, something like this would certainly yield positive results.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Those of us who produce children who will go on to college and make something of themselves because they had good parents to teach them right from wrong, that hard work pays off, and to refrain from drugs/crime are producing the future workforce, the folks who might someday be funding our social security, etc. On the other hand, the poor are by and large producing our future prisoners and felons, future gang members, future meth manufacturers, etc. That's a lot of generalization, but gang membership and distribution of meth is not found in all socioeconomic cross sections of society at the same levels.

Thank goodness for people of higher socioeconomic status, the majority of which are white. The heavens open. Let's ignore the fact that indecency and crime (across categories) span across socioeconomic status. Let's also ignore the fact the average poor person is hard working, honest, and not involved in crime.

/letting Kevin dig himself a bigoted hole.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Bullshit. And this is why people have silent struggles.

#firstworldproblems. Our middle class "struggles" are certainly struggles, but no middle class income person is really worried about whether they will have shelter or the basic necessities.

[quote]

Thank goodness for people of higher socioeconomic status,

True enough... if there wasn't enough of their wealth to redistribute, the poor folks would have it pretty bad.

Let's ignore the fact that indecency and crime (across categories) span across socioeconomic status. Let's also ignore the fact the average poor person is hard working, honest, and not involved in crime.

Do they? Are a lot of those folks in the country club cooking meth and having their children placed into foster care? I work in the system and I just don't see that happening. Out of the hundreds of cases I've worked on, I think one time ever did I have kids in private school.

That said, back to the original subject, the proposed system didn't intentionally target lower-income people, but I could definitely see why $1,000 to someone on public assistance would mean more than $1,000 to me.

[als463]

Kevin, don't you think that people with money are less likely to make enemies of the court system? I'm being serious. I want to make it clear that I am not badgering you or calling you names. In fact, I sometimes believe that you may say things that others might think but, do not want to express. I'm not saying that you don't have valid points that people who are middle or upper class are more likely to value waiting until they are financially stable to have children but, let's be honest here. Don't you think people may be a little more biased and feel obligated to remove a child from a home that is "poor" and less clean than a home where the parents are well-educated and have some money?

I'll admit that in my past job working for CPS, initially I was more apt to judge the poor families who had been accused of neglect or abuse than the families with money and nice homes. I'm not saying I was right. I remember once getting a call about an upper-middle class home where a mother had slapped her teenage daughter and my first thought walking into the beautiful well-kept home was, "Well, maybe the teenager talked back to her mom and deserved a slap." Thinking back, there is really no excuse for hitting your child but, I almost found myself siding more with the married parents with the high income. For cases of low-income families, I might have gone in thinking, "This must be a cycle of abuse for this family." I was quite judgmental when I first started my career. It's good that things have since changed or I would not be nearly as successful in my current career as I am now. I just had to realize my bias and open my mind.

I do have to say that, if nothing else, I appreciate the dialogue of everyone in this thread because if everyone agreed 100%, then this would be a very one-sided discussion.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by als463

Don't you think people may be a little more biased and feel obligated to remove a child from a home that is "poor" and less clean than a home where the parents are well-educated and have some money?

An adequately trained CPS worker should know the minimum standards for what is appropriate for a home. As you know, those standards are quite minimal and that the CPS worker needs to also be culturally competent. I've run into the latter quite a bit with intake workers getting pickup orders because what they viewed as abuse/neglect was really just how a certain culture dealt with those kinds of issues.

There was a great story about a CPS worker who was sent out on a referral about a Native American family. They went to the family's home, which was a trailer on some land. They found that the children had a place to sleep, but when they checked the fridge and the pantry, both were completely empty. Before said worker finished their investigation, they were asked if they wanted to have dinner with the family. Wondering where the food was coming from, they agreed. Subsequently, they were led down a horse trail which ended up at another trailer. Inside was family and extended family sitting down for a big meal together as is customary in that particular tribe's culture.

That sort of thing is part of the training CPS workers get here, but we have some pretty awful CPS workers and I don't doubt class plays a role in pickup orders. And intake workers.. the quality varies and they don't often stay there long. It's one of the worst, if not the worst job CPS has to offer.

I'll admit that in my past job working for CPS, initially I was more apt to judge the poor families who had been accused of neglect or abuse than the families with money and nice homes. I'm not saying I was right.

With poverty, neglect is sometimes a symptom of an overall disease. The family might be dealing with addiction or some other issue, so while poverty alone isn't going to get anyone's kids taken into custody (or shouldn't), you're going to find a lot more kids who are victims of abuse and neglect in poor homes than any other kind. That should be obvious to anyone.

I remember once getting a call about an upper-middle class home where a mother had slapped her teenage daughter and my first thought walking into the beautiful well-kept home was, "Well, maybe the teenager talked back to her mom and deserved a slap." Thinking back, there is really no excuse for hitting your child but, I almost found myself siding more with the married parents with the high income. For cases of low-income families, I might have gone in thinking, "This must be a cycle of abuse for this family." I was quite judgmental when I first started my career. It's good that things have since changed or I would not be nearly as successful in my current career as I am now. I just had to realize my bias and open my mind.

I don't see a pickup order being signed over one slap and no matter what the income of the family, that referral does warrant further investigation.

I do have to say that, if nothing else, I appreciate the dialogue of everyone in this thread because if everyone agreed 100%, then this would be a very one-sided discussion.

Yup.

[DrPhil]

Kevin, and anyone who believes as he does, is a bigot with limited exposure. He very much deserves to be badgered and called names. There is no need to apologetically question or coddle Kevin. He is an adamant asshole and knows exactly what he's saying. People like Kevin do a lot of damage to societies. Social policies should not be based on such inaccurate and inconsistent views of the poor and middle class.

/we all have our views that rub other people the wrong way but people like Kevin can fuck off a million times

[als463]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Kevin is a bigot with limited exposure. Social policies should not be based on such inaccurate views of the poor and middle class.

Well, I'm trying not to jump to that conclusion. I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of people who think just like him. I at least give him credit for saying it out loud and not keeping it to himself. If nothing else, we can agree that Kevin says what he is thinking.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by als463

Well, I'm trying not to jump to that conclusion.

Thank goodness Kevin isn't a politician. He'd be expressing his bigotry and stupidity and you'd be waiting patiently for the Golden Compass. Meanwhile, the uneducated bigotry has been inserted in the policies and laws.

Originally Posted by als463

I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of people who think just like him. I at least give him credit for saying it out loud and not keeping it to himself. If nothing else, we can agree that Kevin says what he is thinking.

Kevin isn't the first person to express these bigoted viewpoints. Everything he types has been said by plenty of people over the generations. I talk to people everyday who hold these viewpoints and I read about these viewpoints everyday. To hell with all of them. People don't get props for expressing uninformed and uneducated opinions. No thanks and no props.

[als463]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Thank goodness Kevin isn't a politician. He'd be expressing his bigotry and stupidity and you'd be waiting patiently for the Golden Compass. Meanwhile, the uneducated bigotry has been inserted in the policies and laws.



Kevin isn't the first person to express these bigoted viewpoints. Everything he types has been said by plenty of people over the generations. I talk to people everyday who hold these viewpoints and I read about these viewpoints everyday. To hell with all of them. People don't get props for expressing uninformed and uneducated opinions. No thanks and no props.

Hey now. I'm trying to put an optimistic spin on it. I remember saying to one of my LGBTQI friends, "I'd rather know who is bigoted towards me than to wonder." I am not LGBTQI. I was using the example that if someone discriminated against me, I'd rather know their feelings so that I don't patronize their establishment than to give money to people who hate me simply for being me. While his statements are uneducated in nature, there are many people who actually feel like him (as you noted).

I wish there was an easier way to rid the world of poverty and unfair conditions. I don't know how we can do that. Let's talk about some suggestions how we can make things better and advocate for marginalized populations.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Kevin, and anyone who believes as he does, is a bigot with limited exposure. He very much deserves to be badgered and called names. There is no need to apologetically question or coddle Kevin. He is an adamant asshole and knows exactly what he's saying. People like Kevin do a lot of damage to societies. Social policies should not be based on such inaccurate and inconsistent views of the poor and middle class.

/we all have our views that rub other people the wrong way but people like Kevin can fuck off a million times

As I said, I do volunteer work in our juvenile justice system representing children in deprived cases at no cost. I literally deal with the worst of the worst and I have worked on hundreds of cases. Unless it is your full time job to work with these demographics, I have a lot more experience at it than you do.

I doubt you've met many women who have given back double-digit numbers of kids to the state because they keep being born addicted to meth. I've represented the children of more than one.

Generational poverty is a thing. The proposed program would put a real dent in it. Especially among those with addiction issues.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

...I have a lot more experience at it than you do.

No, you don't.

And your supposed experience is completely wasted on you. You completely miss the point.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And the other thing that kills me is...I have friends (middle class and white) who have asked for hysterectomies or tubal ligations and had doctors refuse because "you're too young to know what you want" and "you may want babies someday. You are a woman, of course!" But that's a different thread and a different struggle, I suppose.

I have a friend who has been trying to 10 years to get her tubes tied. What you've quoted above is the same crap she hears from doctors every time she asks about the procedure. No one has agreed to do the surgery for her, and she's 30 years old and married to someone who also doesn't want kids. She's basically begged doctors to do it, and they still refuse. It's ridiculous and sad. She has struggled taking birth control, as she usually suffers numerous side effects, and the last thing she wants to do is have an abortion (if she were to accidentally get pregnant).

Sometimes, even if you try to do everything right, there are still people out there who will refuse to allow it.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Let's spread the wealth.. give drug addicts free money in reparations. You don't do anything but talk shit about any proposal to fix the issue. You are not part of the solution. You're part of the problem. If idiots like you would get out of the way, we could have this issue tackled in a couple generations.

Oh, the irony.

Originally Posted by Kevin

#firstworldproblems. Our middle class "struggles" are certainly struggles, but no middle class income person is really worried about whether they will have shelter or the basic necessities.

There have been PLENTY of middle class families struggling over recent years to try to put food on the table and a roof over their families' heads. The economy tanked, in case you forgot. How do you suppose some of these poor people became poor? Sometimes, it's because they were in the middle class and a shitty situation led them to live in homeless shelters with their 3 kids.

ETA: What even constitutes "middle class" nowadays? It doesn't seem that anyone can agree on an answer.