Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Oh good grief, no. They are relevant for the self evident reason that it's women who are overwhelmingly complaining about the status quo and men are not. That would suggest that women perceive and react to hookup culture differently than men do, and while some of that difference is socialization, it's also biological and evolutionary differences in males and females. The former is amenable to forced change, the latter is not.

So, the big question is how do we reduce the risk of women being victimized? Telling them that they are sexually equivalent to men doesn't seem to be doing much for a lot of college women. It seems the new method will be to impose an impossibly unfair adjudication standard that, in your own words, is trading one form of injustice for another form of injustice. And turn our colleges into lawsuit factories.

Explain the biological sex differences that are less subject to change. What are the differences?

As for gender differences: While I am a feminist gender egalitarian, the average person around the world (and average college student) does not subscribe to the belief that women and men are or should be (socially) the same. Therefore, most people believe in gender differences (there is longstanding debate about differences and whether any type of difference is bad) and forms of gender inequality are alive and well on most college campuses despite co-ed classrooms (and some schools have co-ed residence halls) and some women being more sexually liberated. There is more to gender equality and challenging gender norms than a free flow (pun intended) of drinking and sex.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I didn't say universities should declare innocent people guilty. I said they should have a lower standard of evidence than "beyond a reasonable doubt." Personally, I don't think not being able to go to law school is worse than rape. And what's your alternative? To just keep ignoring rape?

False dichotomy. The alternative is to work toward a system that better protects and balances the rights of the accuser and the rights of the accused. The bottom line is that I don't think a lower standard of proof, or ideas like treating multiple accusations as proof of the truth of the allegations (they might be, they might not) will solve the problems, and I have little confidence that in practice they'd be workable. I see them leading to a whole different set of problems.

As for my law example, you're missing my point. Of course, not being able to go to law school isn't worse than rape. I'm talking about the possible consequences of a school undertaking the kind of process you're talking about and getting it wrong. I'm talking about the possible consequences of a student being expelled from school for something, a very serious something, he didn't do.

And yes, if a university expels a student for rape, then they are declaring him guilty of rape. Not guilty in a criminal law sense, but guilty in the practical, 'he raped someone" sense.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Oh good grief, no. They are relevant for the self evident reason that it's women who are overwhelmingly complaining about the status quo and men are not. That would suggest that women perceive and react to hookup culture differently than men do, and while some of that difference is socialization, it's also biological and evolutionary differences in males and females. The former is amenable to forced change, the latter is not.

Thank you for finally explaining what you mean instead of assuming we'd accurately guess what you mean. As a male, I don't think biology plays nearly the role you seem to—I think what you're calling biology I would call socialization as to what culture says it means to be male or female.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Explain the biological sex differences that are less subject to change. What are the differences?

Hormonal, reproductive, brain size and structure...

As for gender differences: While I am a feminist gender egalitarian, the average person around the world (and average college student) does not subscribe to the belief that women and men are or should be (socially) the same. Therefore, most people believe in gender differences (there is longstanding debate about differences and whether any type of difference is bad) and forms of gender inequality are alive and well on most college campuses despite co-ed classrooms (and some schools have co-ed residence halls) and some women being more sexually liberated. There is more to gender equality and challenging gender norms than a free flow (pun intended) of drinking and sex.

Not sure how this specifically relates to the discussion?

[Low D Flat]

it's women who are overwhelmingly complaining about the status quo and men are not. That would suggest that women perceive and react to hookup culture differently than men do

Are you suggesting that rape on campus results from hookup culture? Because I think rape was going on for decades before "hookup culture" was a thing. There was no hookup culture in 1964 when Animal House took place, but there was definitely campus rape.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Hormonal, reproductive, brain size and structure...

Actually explain what these have to do with this thread topic.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Not sure how this specifically relates to the discussion?

You can't be serious.

ETA: What things do people (usually falsely) use as examples of innate or social differences? Alcohol consumption, sex, co-ed living, co-ed classes?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

False dichotomy. The alternative is to work toward a system that better protects and balances the rights of the accuser and the rights of the accused. The bottom line is that I don't think a lower standard of proof, or ideas like treating multiple accusations as proof of the truth of the allegations (they might be, they might not) will solve the problems, and I have little confidence that in practice they'd be workable. I see them leading to a whole different set of problems.

As for my law example, you're missing my point. Of course, not being able to go to law school isn't worse than rape. I'm talking about the possible consequences of a school undertaking the kind of process you're talking about and getting it wrong. I'm talking about the possible consequences of a student being expelled from school for something, a very serious something, he didn't do.

And yes, if a university expels a student for rape, then they are declaring him guilty of rape. Not guilty in a criminal law sense, but guilty in the practical, 'he raped someone" sense.

Thank you for finally explaining what you mean instead of assuming we'd accurately guess what you mean. As a male, I don't think biology plays nearly the role you seem to—I think what you're calling biology I would call socialization as to what culture says it means to be male or female.

I came of age in the era when nurture was assumed to account for almost all differences and that was also my viewpoint. Since then, the scientific community has made a lot of discoveries about the biological differences. There is certainly still a debate about the exact percentage that is nature vs nurture* but there's no longer much scientific debate that biology plays more than a minor role.

* ETA that there is also an interesting debate about how these two intersect

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I came of age in the era when nurture was assumed to account for almost all differences and that was also my viewpoint.

Supposedly when did this era occur?

Originally Posted by honorgal

Since then, the scientific community has made a lot of discoveries about the biological differences. There is certainly still a debate about the exact percentage that is nature vs nurture but there's no longer much scientific debate that biology plays more than a minor role.

Explain what that has to do with this topic.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Actually explain what these have to do with this thread topic.

You asked me about biological sex differences. ?

You can't be serious.

Yes, I am not at all clear on what point you are trying to make.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Supposedly when did this era occur?

'70's.

Explain what that has to do with this topic.

If you look at my quote I was specifically referring to MysticCat's comment on the role biology plays.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

ETA: What things do people (usually falsely) use as examples of innate or social differences? Alcohol consumption, sex, co-ed living, co-ed classes?

Are you asking me??? Sorry, but you are still being clear as mud on what you are getting at. You obviously think we disagree on some major point but I don't know what the heck it is.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

You asked me about biological sex differences. ?

We all know what people typically mean when they talk about female and male.

What is unclear is why you brought up biology in this thread.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Yes, I am not at all clear on what point you are trying to make.

You finally explained that you believe the campus rape "crisis" is linked to a hookup culture in which women want to be like men but inconsistently and unfairly subscribe to this ideology. I am telling you that it is a falsehood that colleges are gender egalitarian as though the majority of people believe women and men are the same. Binge drinking, casual sex, and co-ed classrooms/living do not mean the average college student is combating gender differences.

In addition, the double standard of the "woman slut" and "man stud" is alive and well on most college campuses. Honorgal is positing that women want free sex to feel liberated and comparable to men but want to claim foul when they have regrets, etc. It is dangerous to attribute that to women, in general. It reeks of the same "don't frown...just close your legs" that girls and women have been told for centuries; and is a big part of some Men's Rights movements. It also implies that it is only women who have sexual regrets or only women who find ways to psychologically, emotionally, or physically (aggression, etc) deal with (nonconsensual and consensual) sexual encounters. Those darn women. Why can't they be as biologically strong, gender strong, unemotional, rational, and neutral as men? Why can't they either keep their legs closed or handle sex the way men do? (Not to mention this makes the debate about the TRUE meanings of consensual sex and nonconsensual sex)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

If you look at my quote I was specifically referring to MysticCat's comment on the role biology plays.

Yes, MysticCat and I both disagree that biology plays a role in this topic. You haven't explained what role you believe biology plays.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Are you asking me??? Sorry, but you are still being clear as mud on what you are getting at. You obviously think we disagree on some major point but I don't know what the heck it is.

This is funny.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

We all know what people typically mean when they talk about female and male.

What is unclear is why you brought up biology in this thread.




You finally explained that you believe the campus rape "crisis" is linked to a hookup culture in which women want to be like men but inconsistently and unfairly subscribe to this ideology. I am telling you that it is a falsehood that colleges are gender egalitarian as though the majority of people believe women and men are the same. Binge drinking, casual sex, and co-ed classrooms/living do not mean the average college student is combating gender differences.

In addition, the double standard of the "woman slut" and "man stud" is alive and well on most college campuses. Honorgal is positing that women want free sex to feel liberated and comparable to men but want to claim foul when they have regrets, etc. It is dangerous to attribute that to women, in general. It reeks of the same "don't frown...just close your legs" that girls and women have been told for centuries; and is a big part of some Men's Rights movements. It also implies that it is only women who have sexual regrets or only women who find ways to psychologically, emotionally, or physically (aggression, etc) deal with (nonconsensual and consensual) sexual encounters. Those darn women. Why can't they be as biologically strong, gender strong, unemotional, rational, and neutral as men? Why can't they either keep their legs closed or handle sex the way mean do? (Not to mention this makes the debate about the TRUE meanings of consensual sex and nonconsensual sex)

I don't care what it implies. The facts are that it's almost exclusively women who are demanding that we throw out due process for the (almost always) male accused and that we abolish the presumption of innocence and redefine the legal meaning of consensual and nonconsensual sex. That's the extent of my interest in the subject. Beyond that, I'm not interested in fighting the gender wars from either perspective.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes, MysticCat and I both disagree that biology plays a role in this topic. You haven't explained what role you believe biology plays.

Yes I have. But you are coming from a framework where self admittedly you think biological differences are exaggerated. So I can see how it would be difficult to understand the role it plays.

[Low D Flat]

So how come there was campus rape before hookup culture existed, and before second-wave feminism in the 70s? Or do you assert that there wasn't campus rape before then?