Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Oh good grief, no. They are relevant for the self evident reason that it's women who are overwhelmingly complaining about the status quo and men are not. That would suggest that women perceive and react to hookup culture differently than men do, and while some of that difference is socialization, it's also biological and evolutionary differences in males and females. The former is amenable to forced change, the latter is not.

So, the big question is how do we reduce the risk of women being victimized? Telling them that they are sexually equivalent to men doesn't seem to be doing much for a lot of college women. It seems the new method will be to impose an impossibly unfair adjudication standard that, in your own words, is trading one form of injustice for another form of injustice. And turn our colleges into lawsuit factories.

Explain the biological sex differences that are less subject to change. What are the differences?

As for gender differences: While I am a feminist gender egalitarian, the average person around the world (and average college student) does not subscribe to the belief that women and men are or should be (socially) the same. Therefore, most people believe in gender differences (there is longstanding debate about differences and whether any type of difference is bad) and forms of gender inequality are alive and well on most college campuses despite co-ed classrooms (and some schools have co-ed residence halls) and some women being more sexually liberated. There is more to gender equality and challenging gender norms than a free flow (pun intended) of drinking and sex.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Explain the biological sex differences that are less subject to change. What are the differences?

Hormonal, reproductive, brain size and structure...

As for gender differences: While I am a feminist gender egalitarian, the average person around the world (and average college student) does not subscribe to the belief that women and men are or should be (socially) the same. Therefore, most people believe in gender differences (there is longstanding debate about differences and whether any type of difference is bad) and forms of gender inequality are alive and well on most college campuses despite co-ed classrooms (and some schools have co-ed residence halls) and some women being more sexually liberated. There is more to gender equality and challenging gender norms than a free flow (pun intended) of drinking and sex.

Not sure how this specifically relates to the discussion?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Hormonal, reproductive, brain size and structure...

Actually explain what these have to do with this thread topic.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Not sure how this specifically relates to the discussion?

You can't be serious.

ETA: What things do people (usually falsely) use as examples of innate or social differences? Alcohol consumption, sex, co-ed living, co-ed classes?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Actually explain what these have to do with this thread topic.

You asked me about biological sex differences. ?

You can't be serious.

Yes, I am not at all clear on what point you are trying to make.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

You asked me about biological sex differences. ?

We all know what people typically mean when they talk about female and male.

What is unclear is why you brought up biology in this thread.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Yes, I am not at all clear on what point you are trying to make.

You finally explained that you believe the campus rape "crisis" is linked to a hookup culture in which women want to be like men but inconsistently and unfairly subscribe to this ideology. I am telling you that it is a falsehood that colleges are gender egalitarian as though the majority of people believe women and men are the same. Binge drinking, casual sex, and co-ed classrooms/living do not mean the average college student is combating gender differences.

In addition, the double standard of the "woman slut" and "man stud" is alive and well on most college campuses. Honorgal is positing that women want free sex to feel liberated and comparable to men but want to claim foul when they have regrets, etc. It is dangerous to attribute that to women, in general. It reeks of the same "don't frown...just close your legs" that girls and women have been told for centuries; and is a big part of some Men's Rights movements. It also implies that it is only women who have sexual regrets or only women who find ways to psychologically, emotionally, or physically (aggression, etc) deal with (nonconsensual and consensual) sexual encounters. Those darn women. Why can't they be as biologically strong, gender strong, unemotional, rational, and neutral as men? Why can't they either keep their legs closed or handle sex the way men do? (Not to mention this makes the debate about the TRUE meanings of consensual sex and nonconsensual sex)

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

We all know what people typically mean when they talk about female and male.

What is unclear is why you brought up biology in this thread.




You finally explained that you believe the campus rape "crisis" is linked to a hookup culture in which women want to be like men but inconsistently and unfairly subscribe to this ideology. I am telling you that it is a falsehood that colleges are gender egalitarian as though the majority of people believe women and men are the same. Binge drinking, casual sex, and co-ed classrooms/living do not mean the average college student is combating gender differences.

In addition, the double standard of the "woman slut" and "man stud" is alive and well on most college campuses. Honorgal is positing that women want free sex to feel liberated and comparable to men but want to claim foul when they have regrets, etc. It is dangerous to attribute that to women, in general. It reeks of the same "don't frown...just close your legs" that girls and women have been told for centuries; and is a big part of some Men's Rights movements. It also implies that it is only women who have sexual regrets or only women who find ways to psychologically, emotionally, or physically (aggression, etc) deal with (nonconsensual and consensual) sexual encounters. Those darn women. Why can't they be as biologically strong, gender strong, unemotional, rational, and neutral as men? Why can't they either keep their legs closed or handle sex the way mean do? (Not to mention this makes the debate about the TRUE meanings of consensual sex and nonconsensual sex)

I don't care what it implies. The facts are that it's almost exclusively women who are demanding that we throw out due process for the (almost always) male accused and that we abolish the presumption of innocence and redefine the legal meaning of consensual and nonconsensual sex. That's the extent of my interest in the subject. Beyond that, I'm not interested in fighting the gender wars from either perspective.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I don't care what it implies. The facts are that it's almost exclusively women who are demanding that we throw out due process for the (almost always) male accused and that we abolish the presumption of innocence and redefine the legal meaning of consensual and nonconsensual sex. That's the extent of my interest in the subject. Beyond that, I'm not interested in fighting the gender wars from either perspective.

You should care what it implies especially when you introduce biology and gender differences to a discussion.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Yes, I have.

No, you haven't. Perhaps you do not even know.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

ETA: What things do people (usually falsely) use as examples of innate or social differences? Alcohol consumption, sex, co-ed living, co-ed classes?

Are you asking me??? Sorry, but you are still being clear as mud on what you are getting at. You obviously think we disagree on some major point but I don't know what the heck it is.