Arizona State University - TKE

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's a huge school. I mean, per capita, more kids are going to die there than other places.

Having a fraternity member die at a social event and his body being found days later in a ditch will likely bring the administration down on any Greek system. Having that followed up by several other violent incidents makes it much worse. I understand you have a freedom of association bent, Kevin , but seriously it doesn't take much to Google ASU.

[IndianaSigKap]

My college best friend lives just miles away from ASU and she and her husband are planning on sending their kids out of state. They cite the careless party culture at ASU as the reason.

[Phigirl04]

It would be one thing if this were an isolated incident but the list of negative fraternity related incidents at ASU in the last year isn't short at all. I've employed members of this and other groups and I know these actions are only a small part of the Greek system but it most be admitted that some type of change needs to happen if fraternity life at ASU is to continue. They have painted a huge bull's eye on themselves and now there are repercussions.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Having a fraternity member die at a social event and his body being found days later in a ditch will likely bring the administration down on any Greek system. Having that followed up by several other violent incidents makes it much worse. I understand you have a freedom of association bent, Kevin , but seriously it doesn't take much to Google ASU.

I appreciate that you understand that there is such a thing as freedom of association. That means that whether or not ASU wants a fraternity system, one is going to exist. They can either keep it associated with the fraternity system and try to regulate it in cooperation with national organizations or they can have a totally unregulated system of local and some national fraternities. They cannot stop people from associating in fraternal systems. It's not within their power.

That said, there are steps they could take, for example, requiring each house to have a residential advisers who could counsel the organizations and report illegal conduct to the authorities. Headquarters could send down consultants to reorganize chapters, etc. Tabula rasa isn't realistic and would probably have more negative unintended consequences than benefits.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I appreciate that you understand that there is such a thing as freedom of association. That means that whether or not ASU wants a fraternity system, one is going to exist. They can either keep it associated with the fraternity system and try to regulate it in cooperation with national organizations or they can have a totally unregulated system of local and some national fraternities. They cannot stop people from associating in fraternal systems. It's not within their power.

That said, there are steps they could take, for example, requiring each house to have a residential advisers who could counsel the organizations and report illegal conduct to the authorities. Headquarters could send down consultants to reorganize chapters, etc. Tabula rasa isn't realistic and would probably have more negative unintended consequences than benefits.

Yeah, we all understand that. Administrations don't always. Some ASU fraternities have been out of control (I won't paint them with a broad brush) and as Maria said the state sent out a letter regarding Greek life due to their antics. I don't know how much you know about AZ but it's not a state known for careful consideration before action. It is incumbent upon the Greek system to police itself before something worse happens. As you said, underground groups would be much worse, so where are the organizations making sure that their chapters are in line with regulations? The college administration will be sued for student deaths just as readily as any of these fraternities, so at least they are making a show of being interested.

[DrPhil]

LOL. With all due love and respect, what in the shit are you all typing about? The larger issue isn't ASU Greek Life. The larger issue is racialized dumbassness. Hiding this behind Greekdom is why stuff like this keeps happening.

Anderson Cooper had this on his Ridiculist last night. I don't agree with his constant use of "frat" and his perceived tone regarding Greekdom but I can get over it for the larger point.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL. With all due love and respect, what in the shit are you all typing about? The larger issue isn't ASU Greek Life. The larger issue is racialized dumbassness. Hiding this behind Greekdom is why stuff like this keeps happening.

Anderson Cooper had this on his Ridiculist last night. I don't agree with his constant use of "frat" and his perceived tone regarding Greekdom but I can get over it for the larger point.

This is one symptom of a much larger problem here. It's cultural and dressing up in racially offensive dress and posting it on Facebook is not the only thing happening. A kid died of alcohol poisoning not too long ago. This is just an example of an out of control culture.

Some national organizations, TKE, in particular, at least in my experience take a pretty hands-off approach to out-of-control chapters. As to my organization, we shut down our chapter there in April of 2012, probably after noting the cultural issues, with plans to reopen in 2016.

I've seen first-hand what good can come from shutting down a chapter and rebuilding it with a more values-based approach. As an organization, we've had a lot of success with that.

But to say this is just a racial thing isn't accurate. It's bigger than that.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

But to say this is just a racial thing isn't accurate. It's bigger than that.

I disagree. Greek Life isn't bigger than race. Ever.**
Putting the "Greek Life bandaid" on this will keep these parties happening if not at ASU then at other campuses. People will just decrease posting photos on social media.

The idiots at ASU have "Greek Life problems". But if these parties were primarily about "Greek Life problems" then they could have thought of millions of other dumbass things to do in the name of "Greek Life problems."

**If this story was about a fraternity that was overtly sexist and misogynist towards women people would be mostly discussing the larger dynamic of sexism and misogyny. Sure, that fraternity may have "Greek Life problems" but people would be wondering why in the hell these fraternity members chose to express their "Greek Life problems" in this particular manner. It would be indicative of a larger culture of sexism and misogyny. It is unfortunate that people can grasp this when discussing other social dynamics except race and ethnicity.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I disagree. Greek Life isn't bigger than race. Ever.**
Putting the "Greek Life bandaid" on this will keep these parties happening if not at ASU then at other campuses. People will just decrease posting photos on social media.

You're entitled to your opinion. Agree to disagree.

The idiots at ASU have "Greek Life problems". But if these parties were primarily about "Greek Life problems" then they could have thought of millions of other dumbass things to do in the name of "Greek Life problems."

Well the race thing is one of many problems stemming from a larger issue--that these kids come from mostly privileged backgrounds where this sort of thing is acceptable. In many cases, this goes beyond even Greek Life to being a cultural issue.. and not a new one by any stretch.

If this story was about a fraternity that was overtly sexist and misogynist towards women people would be mostly discussing the larger dynamic of sexism and misogyny. Sure, that fraternity may have "Greek Life problems" but people would be wondering why in the hell these fraternity members chose to express their "Greek Life problems" in this particular manner. It would be indicative of a larger culture of sexism and misogyny. It is unfortunate that people can grasp this when discussing other social dynamics except race and ethnicity.[/size]

There are overtly sexist party themes everywhere too and probably a lot more accepted. And wow this is being blown out of proportion. Boycotts? calls to expel students? Yikes. I actually find that sort of reaction more offensive than any of those photographs.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Well the race thing is one of many problems stemming from a larger issue--that these kids come from mostly privileged backgrounds where this sort of thing is acceptable. In many cases, this goes beyond even Greek Life to being a cultural issue...

Do you realize you are saying the same thing that I am saying? You are simply calling it a "larger cultural issue" (you now are using "culture" to mean something larger than Greekdom--that's good). It is R-A-C-E. Social class is highly correlated with R-A-C-E. White college students from mostly privileged backgrounds who mock racial and ethnic minorities are doing it based on R-A-C-E. Social class and privileged background vary by R-A-C-E. After all, those idiots at ASU weren't mocking their fellow white people. You can keep calling it "culture" if you choose (white people tend to play word games because it keeps the warm and fuzzy going) but that does not stop it from being R-A-C-E.

Now that we've got that ironed out, I'm glad you were honest about what "culture" means in this instance and stopped playing the "Greek Life problems" game.

[Kevin]

So having members die from alchol poisoning is a race problem?

Interesting.

[AZTheta]

Kevin, if I didn't know better, I would think that you are being deliberately obtuse and provoking (not provocative, I don't know you personally).

There are two things going on here: Racial insensitivity, and a Greek system that is messed up.

I'll find the ABOR letter so you can see the issues with the Greek system.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So having members die from alcohol poisoning....

Is that what was happening at that racially themed party? Cool.

I wonder why every thread about racially themed parties has not boiled down to a discussion of "Greek Life problems." Interesting.

[Phigirl04]

An interesting look at the Greek organizations in AZ. I know this list isn't all inclusive of all the issues but gives a good overview. Gives an idea of the variety of issues that are the base of this problem.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/projects/fraternities/

[ASTalumna06]

Kevin, I agree.

Is this particular incident about race? Yes. Are the overall problems with Greek life at ASU/in Arizona about race? No.

I believe that's the basic point you were getting at, correct?