12-year-old tased by police officer

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Iota Man

But dude is GC very own Grand Wizard.

Nope. Not even close. Kevin says things that I disagree with (along with things that I agree with) and is clueless about certain topics. That is not the crux of racism or the Ku Klux Klan.

As entertaining as this all is, I would like to know why Kevin seems to be cyber-"mad" at me. LOL. Tell 'em why ya "mad", Kevin.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Nope. Not even close. Kevin says things that I disagree with (along with things that I agree with) and is clueless about certain topics. That is not the crux of racism or the Ku Klux Klan.

As entertaining as this all is, I would like to know why Kevin seems to be cyber-"mad" at me. LOL. Tell 'em why ya "mad", Kevin.

Okay, first, sorry to lump you in with Iota. I'm still butthurt over page 1 of this thread. I took that as kind of an out-of-the-blue accusation that you believed I'm only fine with this because the alleged victim here is black. I still don't see any other reasonable way to interpret what was done there, but I'm over it.

For what it's worth, I've learned a lot over the years from you regarding racial issues. I just tend to (as you may have picked up) disagree with a lot of what you've said... and before you ask for specifics, I can't even think of anything specific at the moment.

Aside from that, I have no problems with you. Hatchet buried.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I still don't see any other reasonable way to interpret what was done there, but I'm over it.

If you have not already done so, read my explanation in my edited "where's the spoon" post.

Long story short, I'm all for jokes and amusement but I was curious about why you insisted on convincing yourself that I was calling you racist despite the fact that I do not give much credit to individual racism. Also, someone does not have to be racist, classist, heterosexist, ageist, sexist, or (insert other -isms) to consciously and/or subconsciously conform to mainstream images of beauty, youth, innocence, and harmlessness that are attached to demographic characteristics. This has been a component of societies long before the contemporary media existed. We all conform at times and we constantly have to challenge these images and our acceptance of these images. Such is life. The crimes showcased on HLN's evening shows are sometimes considered an illustration of this as is some of the discussion in that GC thread about Casey Anthony.

Thread Cliff Notes for GCers who are trying to keep up and wondering "what in the hell":

Some GCers were posting about whether people believed there are reasons to ever tase children and are there legal and extralegal factors that shape people's opinions. Does the child have to be engaged in certain behaviors? Does the child have to possess a weapon? Does it have to be a certain type of weapon? What happens if the child has a physical, mental, or emotional condition? Does the child have to be a certain age, income level, education level, family type, style of dress, or possess other traits that people can label "harmful" or "future offender" versus "innocent" or "too pretty/adorable/cutesy" to be a threat.

These are among the things that law enforcement officers deal with during training and during actual incidents. These are also the things that the general public deals with and should think about.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If you have not already done so, read my explanation in my edited "where's the spoon" post.

I certainly would have taken it differently had you attached some sort of explanation. As it stood at the time.. well, we've been over that.

Long story short, I'm all for jokes and amusement but I was curious about why you insisted on convincing yourself that I was calling you racist despite the fact that I do not give much credit to individual racism.

It seemed the simplest explanation for what I was seeing... the implication seemed to be that the difference in the two pictures was that one 12-year old was black and the other white and that I'd have a big problem if the police officer was tasing the white girl.

Let me make it clear--I'd be happy to see that little blonde hellion tased if she was doing what this officer's report indicated the young lady in the OP was doing, and that if all she got was tased (not charged with a crime), she's had a pretty good day.

Also, someone does not have to be racist, classist, heterosexist, ageist, sexist, or (insert other -isms) to consciously and/or subconsciously conform to mainstream images of beauty, youth, innocence, and harmlessness that are attached to demographic characteristics. This has been a component of societies long before the contemporary media existed. We all conform at times and we constantly have to challenge these images and our acceptance of these images. Such is life. The crimes showcased on HLN's evening shows are sometimes considered an illustration of this as is some of the discussion in that GC thread about Casey Anthony.
Thread Cliff Notes for GCers who are trying to keep up and wondering "what in the hell":

That's maybe where we part ways. I do think that facts and actions can be looked at in a vacuum. Of course, when I do something like counsel a black client on taking a plea vs. trial, I'm not an idiot. Race is going to be a factor whether he's innocent or guilty. The challenge attorneys have to overcome is to not make that recommendation because of our own prejudices, but to be realistic about the sort of jury you're going to pick, i.e., likely to be all white folks with driver's licenses who were unresourceful enough not to get out of jury duty.

Some GCers were posting about whether people believed there are reasons to ever tase children and are there legal and extralegal factors that shape people's opinions. Does the child have to be engaged in certain behaviors? Does the child have to possess a weapon? Does it have to be a certain type of weapon? What happens if the child has a physical, mental, or emotional condition? Does the child have to be a certain age, income level, education level, family type, style of dress, or possess other traits that people can label "harmful" or "future offender" versus "innocent" or "too pretty/adorable/cutesy" to be a threat.

Tasing is done both for the subject and the officer's safety. There should have to be some cause, but certainly, the factors above cannot be considered in an instant. It's a judgment call and we have to hope that police forces (yes, this is a laugher and I know it) police themselves internally enough to get rid of consistent bad actors. The recommendation that this incident gets reported to internal affairs will at least allow someone to scrutinize this officer's file. If he has a long history of questionable force, he might merit further scrutiny.

Obviously the incident I posted a link presented a clearly unacceptable tasing incident wherein a bedridden old lady was tased 5 times and had her oxygen hose stepped on which deprived her of oxygen during some sort of an arrest where five officers were present.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I do think that facts and actions can be looked at in a vacuum.

I completely understand and agree to some extent. Many attorneys, judges, and others involved in the criminal justice and legal realms say this. That is often considered intentionally surface-level as to only focus on legal factors. However, it is also considered extremely difficult and some would argue impossible considering this:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Of course, when I do something like counsel a black client on taking a plea vs. trial, I'm not an idiot. Race is going to be a factor whether he's innocent or guilty.

The challenge attorneys have to overcome is to not make that recommendation because of our own prejudices, but to be realistic about the sort of jury you're going to pick, i.e., likely to be all white folks with driver's licenses who were unresourceful enough not to get out of jury duty.

The legal factors are what they are but most remain correlated with extralegal factors. Attorneys, judges, jurors, etc can attempt to control for extralegal factors (hence some studies consistently finding minimal variation in legal outcomes for the same offense across race and socioeconomic status) but only within reason.

[Iota Man]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That is not the crux of racism or the Ku Klux Klan.

I feel you and it isn't, but I will have to agree to disagree with you here, because I'm just not feeling dude when he tells somebody to "get over" something that still is going on today. You and I just feel differently about his comments.