Gunman Opens Fire During "The Dark Knight Rises"

[sigmagirl2000]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

This is from a report by Josh Sugarman. He is the executive director of the VPC, an anti-gun group. I will not quote information from the NRA because it is biased. According to Sugarman's article in 05/12, there are 10 states where 'gun related deaths' exceed motor vehicle deaths (not motor vehicle related deaths) Arizona: 856 gun deaths, 809 motor vehicle deaths. A motor vehicle 'related' death would be if a car fell off blocks and crushed the guy working on it. If it rolled through a parking lot and ran someone over. If someone started the car and sat in it while in a closed garage committing suicide. Those numbers are probably small, but they are tabulated under other categories, home accident, suicide, etc. What Sugarman doesn't mention is how many of the gun deaths are suicides. According to the American Foundation of Suicide Prevention 36,909 people committed suicide in 2009 and firearms are used in 50% of suicides.

Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...135c3a70de1fda

Sugarman fails to mention that of those 856 deaths, about 425 of them were suicides. He conveniently leaves that out because it doesn't help the issue that he is promoting. So homicide, justifiable homicide, and accidental gun deaths in Arizona are about one half of the motor vehicle death rate.

Do not attempt to equate guns with suicide because the suicide rate in Japan is double that of the US and there are not any guns to speak of in Japan, so claiming that suicide rates are related to a prevelance of guns is simply not true.

However, based on your own evidence. Lives could be saved by stricter gun laws and gun control, regardless of whether they be homicide or suicide, lives could be saved.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

However, based on your own evidence. Lives could be saved by stricter gun laws and gun control, regardless of whether they be homicide or suicide, lives could be saved.

Where did you get that guns were have a causal effect on homicide or suicide? I specifically was addressing suicide and showed that absolutely no causal effect based on the complete absence of firearms in Japan yet having a suicide rate DOUBLE that of the US.

As far as homicides go, there are countries with no guns, or very few guns, with homicide rates MUCH higher than here. Remember that we are the third most populous country in the world and have nearly one gun for every man, woman, and child here, about 300 million!!

In 2007 there were 12,632 homicide deaths due to firearms. Let's assume that a different gun was used in each homicide. That is something like a .00004% (that's 4 100,000ths of 1%) misuse of firearms. The only reason that the deaths look large is because there are over 300,000,000 people in US.

Again, from my post, where did you see that my statements supported the idea that gun control would help?

[sigmagirl2000]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

Where did you get that guns were have a causal effect on homicide or suicide? I specifically was addressing suicide and showed that absolutely no causal effect based on the complete absence of firearms in Japan yet having a suicide rate DOUBLE that of the US.

As far as homicides go, there are countries with no guns, or very few guns, with homicide rates MUCH higher than here. Remember that we are the third most populous country in the world and have nearly one gun for every man, woman, and child here, about 300 million!!

In 2007 there were 12,632 homicide deaths due to firearms. Let's assume that a different gun was used in each homicide. That is something like a .00004% (that's 4 100,000ths of 1%) misuse of firearms. The only reason that the deaths look large is because there are over 300,000,000 people in US.

Again, from my post, where did you see that my statements supported the idea that gun control would help?

You were using a 50% firearm suicide rate as argument that firearms cause fewer deaths than simply homicides. If this isn't what you were arguing, then I don't see all the suicide rate statistics as necessary. As an educated individual with 2 strictly mathematics and statistics degrees, I can divide, thanks.

The bottom line is, extra guns floating around can cause extra deaths. In Texas you can use a student ID as valid ID to purchase a gun, but it isn't valid as ID to vote.... there's something wrong with gun control laws when this is the reality of our nation.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

You were using a 50% firearm suicide rate as argument that firearms cause fewer deaths than simply homicides. If this isn't what you were arguing, then I don't see all the suicide rate statistics as necessary.

No, I was saying that 50% of the gun deaths were suicides when comparing them to vehicle fatalities and that you can't count suicides because firearms do not cause suicide. It is because Sugarman needs those numbers included to make a point and makes in sound like there are more firearms homicides than vehicular deaths. It is about 50/50 but it tends to cheat more to the suicide and is closer to 55/45.

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

The bottom line is, extra guns floating around can cause extra deaths. In Texas you can use a student ID as valid ID to purchase a gun, but it isn't valid as ID to vote.... there's something wrong with gun control laws when this is the reality of our nation.

Not true. There are hundreds of thousands of new firearms entering into the general population every year yet the crime and murder rate is down, so extra guns 'floating around' (I don't know that term) do not cause extra deaths.

As far as ID's go, the required ID for purchasing a firearm is set by federal law. One thing that a student ID will show is a residency requirement set under federal law. Voting laws are controlled by indiviual states and you must be a citizen to vote. There are foreign exchange students who have student ID's, but are not allowed to vote. Under certain circumstances they may me allowed to purchase firearms. The federal law regarding foreign nationals changed under the Clinton administration.