Gunman Opens Fire During "The Dark Knight Rises"

[AOII Angel]

In the state of Arizona, which has concealed carry AND some of the most lax gun laws in the country, death by gunshot wound is more common than death by motor vehicle crash. This only happens in 3 states in the union. That is astounding since nationwide motor vehicle crashes account for the majority of deaths of people ages 4-34. Homicide is #2 in the 4-24 group, but that includes all types of homicide. That is a lot of gun violence in Arizona that has not been improved by concealed carry or putting more guns in law abiding citizens hands. More guns does not equal less death by guns.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

In the state of Arizona, which has concealed carry AND some of the most lax gun laws in the country, death by gunshot wound is more common than death by motor vehicle crash. This only happens in 3 states in the union. That is astounding since nationwide motor vehicle crashes account for the majority of deaths of people ages 4-34. Homicide is #2 in the 4-24 group, but that includes all types of homicide. That is a lot of gun violence in Arizona that has not been improved by concealed carry or putting more guns in law abiding citizens hands. More guns does not equal less death by guns.

First of all AZ is a weird state. Something is in the water, or lack of water, to make the people there "off". They have the most suicide by gun and police shootings per population then any other state. You can use these stats to try to prove any point you want but it's hard to get anything to stick. Look at California for example. They have the strictest gun laws in the union yet are consistently number one in the country for violent gun crimes so the more restrictions, less death argument isn't exactly a solid one.

[dukedg]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

First of all AZ is a weird state. Something is in the water, or lack of water, to make the people there "off". They have the most suicide by gun and police shootings per population then any other state. You can use these stats to try to prove any point you want but it's hard to get anything to stick. Look at California for example. They have the strictest gun laws in the union yet are consistently number one in the country for violent gun crimes so the more restrictions, less death argument isn't exactly a solid one.

Will you please post your source? I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I have to defend California! Here's a link to statistics on a per capita basis, that disproves your comment above. I realize this article is out of date, so perhaps you have a more current source? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...rt-of-comments

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by dukedg

Will you please post your source? I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I have to defend California! Here's a link to statistics on a per capita basis, that disproves your comment above. I realize this article is out of date, so perhaps you have a more current source? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...rt-of-comments

I was referring to the actual numbers of murders, not the per capita rate. CA seems to be 12th per capita but still has the most handgun murders in the country at 953 handgun murders. The second place goes to TX at 581 gun murders. Take it for what it is but like i've been saying, if there was a definite correlation between gun laws and murder rates this debate would have been settled long ago.

[ibis]

I guess that no one ever knows what is in a persons mind. No one knows what may make a persons mind snap.
Parents always say He is a good boy, but who actually knows?
According to Drs. or Lawyers in court, they were abused as a child or bullied in life.

But some with so called normal lives can be triggered by some small thing in the brain that no one knows about.

Guns are just made of metal and do not go off by themselves and neither do bombs unless there is a human factor to pull the trigger or drop the bomb.

I guess I will never join the 72 virgins in the after life as I do not plan on shooting or killing anyone.

We must keep guns for a way to defend each other. If we as Colonists did not have guns, we would be speaking The Kings English.

Now I wonder how long it will be before he goes to court and even if he will be convicted? How much will it cost us as tax payers to keep this rat bastard in bed and breakfast?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ibis

I guess that no one ever knows what is in a persons mind. No one knows what may make a persons mind snap.
Parents always say He is a good boy, but who actually knows?
According to Drs. or Lawyers in court, they were abused as a child or bullied in life.

But some with so called normal lives can be triggered by some small thing in the brain that no one knows about.

Guns are just made of metal and do not go off by themselves and neither do bombs unless there is a human factor to pull the trigger or drop the bomb.

I guess I will never join the 72 virgins in the after life as I do not plan on shooting or killing anyone.

We must keep guns for a way to defend each other. If we as Colonists did not have guns, we would be speaking The Kings English.

Now I wonder how long it will be before he goes to court and even if he will be convicted? How much will it cost us as tax payers to keep this rat bastard in bed and breakfast?

TEITY?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

First of all AZ is a weird state. Something is in the water, or lack of water, to make the people there "off". They have the most suicide by gun and police shootings per population then any other state. You can use these stats to try to prove any point you want but it's hard to get anything to stick. Look at California for example. They have the strictest gun laws in the union yet are consistently number one in the country for violent gun crimes so the more restrictions, less death argument isn't exactly a solid one.

I'll agree that AZ is weird, but having the most lax gun laws with more guns running around than any other state CANNOT be discounted as a reason for these stats.

[AOII Angel]

BTW, I was wrong, it is ten states not three with this historic change in #1 cause of death to gun violence rather than motor vehicle crash. I thought I heard 3 when I was listening to reports of this on NPR, but I found different reports when I looked for references on the Internet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-s...b_1536793.html

Alaska: 104 gun deaths, 84 motor vehicle deaths
Arizona: 856 gun deaths, 809 motor vehicle deaths
Colorado: 583 gun deaths, 565 motor vehicle deaths
Indiana: 735 gun deaths, 715 motor vehicle deaths
Michigan: 1,095 gun deaths, 977 motor vehicle deaths
Nevada: 406 gun deaths, 255 motor vehicle deaths
Oregon: 417 gun deaths, 394 motor vehicle deaths
Utah: 260 gun deaths, 256 motor vehicle deaths
Virginia: 836 gun deaths, 827 motor vehicle deaths
Washington: 623 gun deaths, 580 motor vehicle deaths

Please note that none of these are California or any other liberal bastion of gun control.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

BTW, I was wrong, it is ten states not three with this historic change in #1 cause of death to gun violence rather than motor vehicle crash. I thought I heard 3 when I was listening to reports of this on NPR, but I found different reports when I looked for references on the Internet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-s...b_1536793.html




Please note that none of these are California or any other liberal bastion of gun control.

And the point of comparing gun deaths to auto deaths is..?? I mean, traffic fatalities have been on the steady decline for quite a few years due to cars being equipped with better safety features, the implementation of the "seatbelt always on" mentality, better student driver trainings, etc. The gun death numbers on the huffpo article come from the Violence Policy Center, which include suicides and police shootings in their numbers. I've long heard that 2/3 of all gunshot fatalities are results of self-inflicted injuries (suicide/accidents) as opposed to murder. I don't have time now but I'll look it up later. Will stricter gun laws prevent suicides? I really don't think so.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Do you really want to live in a world where you're not trusted to do anything, and are searched everywhere you go? I don't. I would MUCH rather face the possibility of a madman than to give up individual liberties.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but we already live in this world. Why do you think we can't take liquids through airport security, and have to remove our shoes? Why do you think there's heightened security in offices and government buildings? Why do we have to have our bags checked before entering a concert or sporting event? Because there are evil people in this world who have killed innocent people, and have inconvenienced the rest of us.

But I'd rather deal with a 15 minute inconvenience than end up dead. But maybe that's just me.

And what's the trade-off here? Wait 15 minutes to get into the theater.. Or wait 15 miniutes sitting in my seat. There's no real difference if you ask me.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

It's not that it's not possible that it could have helped. It course it might have. What I'm uncomfortable with is the bald assertions in the wake of an incident like this along the lines of "this shows why we need to be able to carry concealed weapon into places like movie theaters." I think that's a knee-jerk reaction that ignores the possibility of the law of unintended consequences and assumes only two possible outcomes -- that it would have helped or that it would not have made a difference -- and ignores the third possible outcome. That's the part of it I have a problem with.

Exaaaaactly.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but we already live in this world. Why do you think we can't take liquids through airport security, and have to remove our shoes? Why do you think there's heightened security in offices and government buildings? Why do we have to have our bags checked before entering a concert or sporting event? Because there are evil people in this world who have killed innocent people, and have inconvenienced the rest of us.

But I'd rather deal with a 15 minute inconvenience than end up dead. But maybe that's just me.

And what's the trade-off here? Wait 15 minutes to get into the theater.. Or wait 15 miniutes sitting in my seat. There's no real difference if you ask me.

Exaaaaactly.

I've quit flying.

I recently canceled plans to go to a Nationals baseball game when I learned I'd be searched like a common criminal.

I'm perfectly happy staying away from places where I'm presumed guilty. But maybe that's just me.

It just amuses me that after an atrocious crime, the rules and regulations change to punish those who didn't do it.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

In the state of Arizona, which has concealed carry AND some of the most lax gun laws in the country, death by gunshot wound is more common than death by motor vehicle crash. This only happens in 3 states in the union. That is astounding since nationwide motor vehicle crashes account for the majority of deaths of people ages 4-34. Homicide is #2 in the 4-24 group, but that includes all types of homicide. That is a lot of gun violence in Arizona that has not been improved by concealed carry or putting more guns in law abiding citizens hands. More guns does not equal less death by guns.

This is from a report by Josh Sugarman. He is the executive director of the VPC, an anti-gun group. I will not quote information from the NRA because it is biased. According to Sugarman's article in 05/12, there are 10 states where 'gun related deaths' exceed motor vehicle deaths (not motor vehicle related deaths) Arizona: 856 gun deaths, 809 motor vehicle deaths. A motor vehicle 'related' death would be if a car fell off blocks and crushed the guy working on it. If it rolled through a parking lot and ran someone over. If someone started the car and sat in it while in a closed garage committing suicide. Those numbers are probably small, but they are tabulated under other categories, home accident, suicide, etc. What Sugarman doesn't mention is how many of the gun deaths are suicides. According to the American Foundation of Suicide Prevention 36,909 people committed suicide in 2009 and firearms are used in 50% of suicides.

Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...135c3a70de1fda

Sugarman fails to mention that of those 856 deaths, about 425 of them were suicides. He conveniently leaves that out because it doesn't help the issue that he is promoting. So homicide, justifiable homicide, and accidental gun deaths in Arizona are about one half of the motor vehicle death rate.

Do not attempt to equate guns with suicide because the suicide rate in Japan is double that of the US and there are not any guns to speak of in Japan, so claiming that suicide rates are related to a prevelance of guns is simply not true.

[sigmagirl2000]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

This is from a report by Josh Sugarman. He is the executive director of the VPC, an anti-gun group. I will not quote information from the NRA because it is biased. According to Sugarman's article in 05/12, there are 10 states where 'gun related deaths' exceed motor vehicle deaths (not motor vehicle related deaths) Arizona: 856 gun deaths, 809 motor vehicle deaths. A motor vehicle 'related' death would be if a car fell off blocks and crushed the guy working on it. If it rolled through a parking lot and ran someone over. If someone started the car and sat in it while in a closed garage committing suicide. Those numbers are probably small, but they are tabulated under other categories, home accident, suicide, etc. What Sugarman doesn't mention is how many of the gun deaths are suicides. According to the American Foundation of Suicide Prevention 36,909 people committed suicide in 2009 and firearms are used in 50% of suicides.

Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...135c3a70de1fda

Sugarman fails to mention that of those 856 deaths, about 425 of them were suicides. He conveniently leaves that out because it doesn't help the issue that he is promoting. So homicide, justifiable homicide, and accidental gun deaths in Arizona are about one half of the motor vehicle death rate.

Do not attempt to equate guns with suicide because the suicide rate in Japan is double that of the US and there are not any guns to speak of in Japan, so claiming that suicide rates are related to a prevelance of guns is simply not true.

However, based on your own evidence. Lives could be saved by stricter gun laws and gun control, regardless of whether they be homicide or suicide, lives could be saved.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

However, based on your own evidence. Lives could be saved by stricter gun laws and gun control, regardless of whether they be homicide or suicide, lives could be saved.

Where did you get that guns were have a causal effect on homicide or suicide? I specifically was addressing suicide and showed that absolutely no causal effect based on the complete absence of firearms in Japan yet having a suicide rate DOUBLE that of the US.

As far as homicides go, there are countries with no guns, or very few guns, with homicide rates MUCH higher than here. Remember that we are the third most populous country in the world and have nearly one gun for every man, woman, and child here, about 300 million!!

In 2007 there were 12,632 homicide deaths due to firearms. Let's assume that a different gun was used in each homicide. That is something like a .00004% (that's 4 100,000ths of 1%) misuse of firearms. The only reason that the deaths look large is because there are over 300,000,000 people in US.

Again, from my post, where did you see that my statements supported the idea that gun control would help?

[sigmagirl2000]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

Where did you get that guns were have a causal effect on homicide or suicide? I specifically was addressing suicide and showed that absolutely no causal effect based on the complete absence of firearms in Japan yet having a suicide rate DOUBLE that of the US.

As far as homicides go, there are countries with no guns, or very few guns, with homicide rates MUCH higher than here. Remember that we are the third most populous country in the world and have nearly one gun for every man, woman, and child here, about 300 million!!

In 2007 there were 12,632 homicide deaths due to firearms. Let's assume that a different gun was used in each homicide. That is something like a .00004% (that's 4 100,000ths of 1%) misuse of firearms. The only reason that the deaths look large is because there are over 300,000,000 people in US.

Again, from my post, where did you see that my statements supported the idea that gun control would help?

You were using a 50% firearm suicide rate as argument that firearms cause fewer deaths than simply homicides. If this isn't what you were arguing, then I don't see all the suicide rate statistics as necessary. As an educated individual with 2 strictly mathematics and statistics degrees, I can divide, thanks.

The bottom line is, extra guns floating around can cause extra deaths. In Texas you can use a student ID as valid ID to purchase a gun, but it isn't valid as ID to vote.... there's something wrong with gun control laws when this is the reality of our nation.