1 Killed in Shootings at Virginia Tech

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

In most cases, it's probably better to wait for professionals who have some training in these situations rather than trying to take matters in your own hands.

Do you think we can really conclude that?

I don't know what the answer is, and I think that a post Columbine change in police techniques is promising.

But we might be better off if people thought in terms of getting the heck out of places in an every man for himself way (which seemed to help some students at VT and Columbine survive) or trying to attack and disarm a person threatening the group (which has occurred with people with weapons at schools and I want to say in an airplane scenario, post 9/11) rather than locking the place down and waiting.

I think "wait for the professions" was great advice when we assumed in most cases what people wanted was money or attention in their lifetimes (bank robberies, political hijackings or hostage taking with demands). But when people are killing out of straight up craziness and evil (like VT and Columbine) or suicidal terrorism (take your pick), by the time the professionals arrive, people will almost certainly be dead.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Do you think we can really conclude that?

Yeah, I do, although I have no personal experience or expertise to back up my opinion -- so, it's just that, an opinion. Or, as you say, a conclusion.

It's a tough decision, but trying to run out or whatever would just cause chaos, I think. A lot of people were killed or injured at both Virginia Tech and Columbine, but the vast majority weren't.

Trying to confront a gunman (gunperson?) unless there are a whole lot of people who have time to organize and plan something would almost always be fatal, I think.

My gut feeling would be to leave it to the professionals.

Not that they're always right either.

[James]

They waited for the professionals, and 32 of them died and how many more wounded?

I suppose it could have gone worse for the dead people . . maybe they could have been killed again.

But actually I am more worried about the mindset in general . . regardless of response time the crime has to take place before the police are called.

Making people rely on the laws of averages for their safety, but then camouflaging it by saying that they are being protected by the police seems disingenuous at least and at worse actually harmful.

You are ultimately responsible for your own safety and need to plan and act accordingly. In stead we teach a kind of paranoid helplessness in this country.

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

In this case, they attempted to break into the building immediately upon arriving. That is the new SOP following Columbine, where SWAT teams waited outside the school for several hours under orders from their superiors so as not to jeopardize their own safety. I think the new procedure is called "active shooter" or something like that.

Situations change from event to event, but by nature and definition, police and other first responders are reactive in most cases. I don't know how to change that unless you station a cop in every room and on every corner.

In most cases, it's probably better to wait for professionals who have some training in these situations rather than trying to take matters in your own hands.

[PeppyGPhiB]

I still find it shocking that the police weren't aggressively looking for the shooter that they knew had killed two students in a dorm on campus hours earlier that morning. Why hadn't they evacuated campus? They assumed the shooter had left campus, but I don't know why they would assume that, considering they had no idea why he had murdered those two people?

[ZTABullwinkle]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I still find it shocking that the police weren't aggressively looking for the shooter that they knew had killed two students in a dorm on campus hours earlier that morning. Why hadn't they evacuated campus? They assumed the shooter had left campus, but I don't know why they would assume that, considering they had no idea why he had murdered those two people?

From what we are being told by the news, it was thought that the police had the "suspect" in custody. Apparently, they believed that the initial shooting was domestically related and were looking at the women's boyfriend who attended another school.

The panel that is investigating the shooting for the Governor is being "pushed" (not the right word I am sure by the families of the victims as to what really happened in between the intial shooting in the dorms and shooting at Norris Hall.

[UGAalum94]

I just want to make clear that I'm not blaming the police for anything. People do the best they can with the information they've got and the responsibility rest with the shooter (or terrorists in those cases).

And I'm not excusing incompetence, but in hindsight, we can always see which threats turned out to be real or that a initial understanding of a crime was wrong. We're often not aware of the number of times a similar threat was never carried out or the times the initial impression was correct.

Sure, we can say that we want every threat treated as if it will occur or a worst case scenario plan followed no matter what the initial impression was. But I don't think that most of us would want to deal with the level of inconvenience, invasiveness, and limits on our freedom that such procedures would bring. (I'm not talking about times we'd know that we were putting up with something to actually keep someone safe; I'm talking about people being worn down by constant false alarms.)

Unless we're honestly willing to live in a police state, I don't think we can be protected by others. And we might benefit from more recognition that our safety is in our own hands.

I know what I'm directed to do at work in certain safety situations, and in almost every instance, I'm going to follow the directions that I've been given, especially because I'm more likely to encounter a drill than anything real. But I also know that if we had an active shooter come into the building suddenly, it probably wouldn't matter and it wouldn't provide much protection for the people nearest to him/her. If you're actually in a room or hall with an armed shooter who has already shot a victim and is still shooting or ready to shoot, waiting for help or looking for help probably isn't a viable option.

I've got no perfect plan instead, but I too wonder if we'd be better off recognizing that it might come down to you having to take action yourself.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by James

They waited for the professionals, and 32 of them died and how many more wounded?

I'm not sure what you're suggesting should be done -- by either people in the buildings or by first responders.

In the case of Columbine, fourteen were killed, but there were a couple thousand students and teachers in the school who were evacuated by police. I haven't seen numbers on how many were in the building at VT, but my guess is that most were rescued unharmed -- at least physically.

If they had all tried to escape through the halls, ran into the chained doors, and were trapped as a larger group, how many more might have been killed or wounded?

As it was, some were able to barricade the doors to their classrooms and may have saved their lives.

I've said before that I'm no expert, but from what I've been able to read, people who were able to hide or barricade doors (or even "play dead" in open rooms) and wait for help at both Virginia Tech and Columbine survived while most of the casualties happened in open rooms or hallways.

Some clear thinking people might be able to help themselves, but chaos and panic seldom help anything. I think that if a lot of people had tried to escape or whatever and either ran into those chained doors -- or the shooter(s) in either case -- panic would almost certainly set in. My guess is that that's why the emergency plans (especially for schools) call for lockdowns instead of evacuations until the emergency services have some kind of understanding of the situation.

Believe me, we've had a lot of those in this area post Columbine and the high school shooting in the Bailey, Colorado area last year.

The point that is well taken, though, is that the first person or several people who encounter a shooter or shooters is most likely in deep trouble.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not sure what you're suggesting should be done -- by either people in the buildings or by first responders.

In the case of Columbine, fourteen were killed, but there were a couple thousand students and teachers in the school who were evacuated by police. I haven't seen numbers on how many were in the building at VT, but my guess is that most were rescued unharmed -- at least physically.

If they had all tried to escape through the halls, ran into the chained doors, and were trapped as a larger group, how many more might have been killed or wounded?

As it was, some were able to barricade the doors to their classrooms and may have saved their lives.

I've said before that I'm no expert, but from what I've been able to read, people who were able to hide or barricade doors (or even "play dead" in open rooms) and wait for help at both Virginia Tech and Columbine survived while most of the casualties happened in open rooms or hallways.

Some clear thinking people might be able to help themselves, but chaos and panic seldom help anything. I think that if a lot of people had tried to escape or whatever and either ran into those chained doors -- or the shooter(s) in either case -- panic would almost certainly set in. My guess is that that's why the emergency plans (especially for schools) call for lockdowns instead of evacuations until the emergency services have some kind of understanding of the situation.

Believe me, we've had a lot of those in this area post Columbine and the high school shooting in the Bailey, Colorado area last year.

The point that is well taken, though, is that the first person or several people who encounter a shooter or shooters is most likely in deep trouble.

Lockdowns are very practical for handling any range of problems which is another beneficial change since Columbine. I think most people recognize that lives could have been saved at VT had the victims been able to look the doors. It would have been effective in reducing the number of deaths.

It just seems to me that there can be a middle ground between inciting chaos (which I did imply with my use of "every man for himself") and encouraging passivity which I'm afraid is what most emergency plans call for.

[alum]

This is a memorial road race in honor of one of the victims. The organizers are hoping it will become an annual event. So if you are a runner and live in Northern VA....

Run For Leslie 5K July 15, 2007 8:30 AM


Event Details Sport Type:RunningDistance(s):5KKids Race(s):NOEvent Location: Burke Lake Park City: Fairfax Station
State/Province: VA Country:USA
Prize Money (If yes, how much?):NO
Is this event chip timed?NO
Event Web site: http://www.spartansports.org
Online Registration: http://spartansports.org/files/Run_For_Leslie_registration_form%5B1%5D.doc

General Event Information On April 16, 2007 Leslie Sherman was killed at Virginia Tech. Help us create a lasting memory of Leslie. By registering you will be making a $20 donation to the Leslie Sherman Memorial Scholarship fund. This scholarship was set up by West Springfield High School and will be awarded yearly to a West Springfield Student who has commited to Virginia Tech.

Questions? Please contact the organizer Event Coordinator:Ashley HughesEvent Email:RunForLeslie@gmail.com
Event Phone Number:703-863-1712

[DeltAlum]

I was looking at my alma mater's web page, and ran across an article about the Ohio University PD participating with several other area agencies in an "active shooter" training program.

Obviously a reaction to the Virginia Tech incident:

http://www.ohio.edu/outlook/06-07/July/755n-067.cfm

[knight_shadow]

Sounds like it's happening again

link

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Sounds like it's happening again

link

Yes, VT is dealing with another gun-related tragedy. But, other than the fact that today's event happened on Tech's campus, this shooting and the massacre in 2007 can't be compared. The 2007 tragedy was a planned mass execution by a lunatic. Today's event appears to be an off-the-cuff type of thing. The fallen police officer had just pulled over the suspect for a routine traffic stop. I pray that today's victims are limited to the two already identified.

How sad and senseless. Thoughts and prayers to the victims' family and friends, and to the Hokie community.

[aephi alum]

Wow. Just ... wow.