Domestic Violence

[33girl]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

And what have you come up with? Why do people find this or men being victims of rape funny?

I would wager, as far as the rape part, because a lot of people assume that men just want sex all the time, no matter the circumstance.

As far as the abuse, the stereotypical picture people have of heterosexual couples is one where the man is taller and larger than the woman. The thought of the smaller person whaling on the larger incites titters. Although of course, this isn't always true - and even if it IS true, a teeny woman can still abuse a man verbally.

IMO all the "aren't men so stupid, we need to take care of them" bashing that has become so prevalent in popular culture is really paving the way for female-on-male abuse - mental AND physical.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

And what have you come up with? Why do people find this or men being victims of rape funny?

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that men are supposed to be "strong," and if a woman (who's inherently weak) can hurt him, then he's really not that much of a man. Weak men are funny! (exclamation point to indicate sarcasm)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

And what have you come up with? Why do people find this or men being victims of rape funny?

Because of gender--the constructed way that girls/women and boys/men are taught to operate to express strength (most often masculinity) and weakness (most often femininity).

Men are supposed to be dominant, powerful, and are not supposed to be vulnerable. It's the same as men not thinking about being victims of crimes when men have a higher rate of violent crime victimization than women (with exception for rape and sexual assault). It is more "manly" and more "masculine" to pretend that men are always in charge. This need to be in charge operates when faced with potential victimization from women and other men.

Therefore, men and women laugh when I talk about violence against men.

[Kevin]

As someone who primarily practices in the family law arena, needless to say, I deal with the results of abuse for a living. It's difficult to discuss the concept in such general terms as is being attempted here as domestic abuse like a lot of human behavior is very nuanced and it is difficult to generalize.

In my experience, when there's abuse, it often goes both ways. I sometimes have a hard time finding a victim, sometimes it's really easy to find the victim. Sometimes, it's two a-holes who deserve each other.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As someone who primarily practices in the family law arena, needless to say, I deal with the results of abuse for a living. It's difficult to discuss the concept in such general terms as is being attempted here as domestic abuse like a lot of human behavior is very nuanced and it is difficult to generalize.

In my experience, when there's abuse, it often goes both ways. I sometimes have a hard time finding a victim, sometimes it's really easy to find the victim. Sometimes, it's two a-holes who deserve each other.

So, in the case of two assholes who deserve each other, abuse is OK?

[GammaPhi88]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

So, in the case of two assholes who deserve each other, abuse is OK?

I don't think that is exactly what Kevin is saying. I think (and Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong), that while the abuse is never okay, it's sometimes hard to find the victim because abuse is so rampant on both sides.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by GammaPhi88

I don't think that is exactly what Kevin is saying. I think (and Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong), that while the abuse is never okay, it's sometimes hard to find the victim because abuse is so rampant on both sides.

That was what I gathered from it. Sometimes there's not just ONE victim and one person perpetrating the abuse. Sometimes, both people end up in both roles at different times because it happens so often.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by GammaPhi88

I don't think that is exactly what Kevin is saying. I think (and Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong), that while the abuse is never okay, it's sometimes hard to find the victim because abuse is so rampant on both sides.

Absolutely. I don't condone it, and as others have observed, ultimately things like when they had sex, who said what/did what to whom become relevant. Dealing with these issues is often very personal, and like I said, it's often the case that both parties are in the wrong.

And it's those cases where both parties are in the wrong that I find the law (at least in Oklahoma) doesn't seem to have an adequate remedy. Often, it's the first person to talk to the police or the first person to get to the courthouse to file for a victim's protection order (VPO) (think restraining order for a victim of domestic violence).

In Oklahoma, the standard for awarding a VPO is pretty low, just that there has been domestic violence, stalking, harassment, dropping off of items at the victim's home, etc. And to go along with that, in the divorce arena, if the court finds there's domestic violence (and it often does in a he-said/she-said context), then there's an automatic presumption that the complaining party should get custody of the child. It's a great way to gain a leg up in a custody proceeding and is abused all the time.

On the civil end, I've both prosecuted and defended these actions and in the majority of the cases, I think the statute is being misused and that there should be a more adequate remedy. Treating one party as the "victim" and the other as aggressor, which is usually a distinction based on gender, is often a wholly inadequate means to tackle this issue in the courtroom context.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's difficult to discuss the concept in such general terms as is being attempted here as domestic abuse like a lot of human behavior is very nuanced and it is difficult to generalize.

It actually is not difficult to discuss the concept in general terms and it is not difficut to generalize. Across millions of domestic violence cases, there are similarities. Generalizations are not intended to apply 100% and even the differences are similar to other differences.

For instance:

Originally Posted by Kevin

In my experience, when there's abuse, it often goes both ways. I sometimes have a hard time finding a victim, sometimes it's really easy to find the victim.

This is an accurate observation and generalization that has also been addressed in research.

[KSUViolet06]

The whole "just leave" thing is SO oversimplified.

I think people who say that, forget that there are many factors involved that keep people from "just leaving."

Sometimes, the victim has kids and worries about just pulling them from school, friends, etc. to make a break for it. You also risk being charged with kidnapping (yes, kidnapping) for taking your own kids away from your Abuser. In many states, you cannot just up and take away kids from another parent, no matter the circumstances (yes, it sucks, but that's what it is.)

"Just leaving" takes money. In a situation where the Abuser controls the money (ex: maybe Victim is a stay at home mom who has never worked), where is someone going to get the money to support themselves once on their own.

Victims also are reluctant to move away from their support network (family, friends, etc.)

Nevermind all the "what if the Abuser finds me?" thoughts.

[Low C Sharp]

everyone says they would leave if it was them

And for a lot of those people, it is true.

There's no one model that fits all abusive relationships. I've seen this up close and personal with someone I love. She wasn't slowly boiled to death. Yes, it got worse over time, but he was an asshole from the word go. Everyone saw it and brought it up when she first met him, but she wouldn't listen to reason. She liked her fantasy of who he was and what they would be together.

I sometimes have a hard time finding a victim, sometimes it's really easy to find the victim.

This is also my experience from my law practice. Sometimes there's just an abusive mess.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

The only thing that I can compare it to is slowly being boiled to death. You're hanging out in a nice comfy pot of water. Slowly the temperature keeps rising, but it's not unbearable. The temperature keeps creeping up, and the next thing you know, you're in a roiling pit of hell.

That's exactly how I would describe abuse starting - an insult, a shove, something not worth mentioning when held by itself. Then it piles on and somebody loses it. I actually called a woman's shelter and asked if I was abused. I can remember practicing saying, "I want some time apart, so we can get some counseling," over and over again. When I was branded with a curling iron, what came out of my mouth was, "I want a divorce."

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I'm so sorry to hear that.

The isolation is the worst; I went from having tons and tons of friends to not so many. Of course, going through something awful like that tends to separate the chaff from the wheat in terms of good friends vs. not good friends, but it's terrible to feel so alone.

This is something that bothers me, as I prepare to (finally!) marry again. I always said that the only time I was ever lonely was when I was married.

Anyone who's reading this and sees the slightest resemblance to the relationship that they're in, please, call someone, describe a normal day, and see what's up. Don't be overly dramatic, but start an escape plan. Leave some clothes or valuables with someone you trust, especially someone your abuser doesn't know. Save every penny you can, and make sure it's well hidden, and make sure you have a good exit strategy!

IrishLake, I didn't see your post before. ((((((((((((((((((((IrishLake)))))))))))))))))

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

And for a lot of those people, it is true.

Yes and no one knows what they "would do" until they actually do it.

IrishLake, I appreciate your honesty. However, I doubt the hugs and love that you are receiving would be sent out if you were a GC man talking about hitting his wife.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes and no one knows what they "would do" until they actually do it.

IrishLake, I appreciate your honesty. However, I doubt the hugs and love that you are receiving would be sent out if you were a GC man talking about hitting his wife.

You don't know the motivation or reason for why I posted my "hugs and love" so whether or not I'd post that for a man hitting his partner is nothing to doubt since that hasn't happened, yet. Someone who took the courage to be open and honest in sharing something so personal in relation to this topic is who I'm sending huge and love to, I'm supporting the action of bringing it into the open, not whether or not I agree with their actions.

[DrPhil]

VandalSquirrel, regardless of whatever, I doubt that a GC man who shared what IrishLake shared would receive the response that she has received. That gendered response to intimate partner violence is why I created this thread.