The Confederate Flag

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

Wow. You can come to next month's "Black meeting" and sit right in the front as my guest.

It would be an honor. Thanks!

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

/slight twist.

I "get" the argument that the flag can mean different things to those flying it, heritage, cultural pride, etc..

Does that same reasoning attach if you see someone burning and American flag? Can they be burning it for reasons other than hatred of America? Is there any "acceptable reason" you can grasp, even if you don't agree, in your mind that would make you at least tolerant?

I suppose "burning" it rather than flying it would make some consider it a more overt political statement, but isn't flying a flag a political statement, of some sort, in the first place?


/end of twist

From back in my Girl Scout days, I do seem to recall that burning is the acceptable way to dispose of a damaged US flag, but that was a long time ago. Of course, that probably wouldn't be done right out in the open for everybody and his/her brother to see, so not comparable.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

From back in my Girl Scout days, I do seem to recall that burning is the acceptable way to dispose of a damaged US flag, but that was a long time ago. Of course, that probably wouldn't be done right out in the open for everybody and his/her brother to see, so not comparable.

No, I didn't mean in in the proper disposal way. I meant it in the "hightest rank of pissitivity" way that we most often see it in news coverage. Do those who allow great latitude for "other reasons" to rep the CF flag, similarly allow that there may be other reasons for those who light up the U.S. flag.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

As far as the article is concerned, yeah, bad choice. But that made the news because it is NOT why the flag is usually flown. You only ever hear about the exceptions, not the rule itself.

I think it totally depends on who is flying it. I'm sure some people fly it out of general "Southern pride" and aren't racists or rebels. At the same time, regardless of who flys it, I think the use of that flag is a mistake. It's a big middle finger to the whole world because it's a flag that was used to represent 1) people who engaged in treason/revolution against the United States and 2) by the Klan and 3) segregationists. I think if you fly it, you're telling the whole world that you are perfectly happy to be identified with those groups.

If someone flies a red flag with a yellow hammer and crescent on it, I tend to believe that they have some sympathy for communists.

A flag is a piece of communication. If it's not communicating the message that you want it to, the problem isn't the fact that audience misunderstood, it's that you have chosen the wrong symbol to communicate.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Just wanted to point that out before this turns into a moral-North vs. hateful-South debate.

I would never say that it was that simple. The North is not anti-slavery at the start of the war. The South secedes because they are concerned about the abolition of slavery. (They clearly state in all of their secession documents.) The North, on the other hand, enters the war in an effort to preserve the Union. Lincoln is very clear that if continuing slavery will help win the war, he'll work to continue slavery, and that if abolishing slavery will help win the war, he'll work to abolish slavery. He's anti-slavery in a moral sense, but he doesn't care about it that much. He cares about preserving the Union. It's only as the war continues that Lincoln and Congress move towards abolishing slavery. The 13th and 14th amendments are only passed in 1865, at the end of the war.

There are also some Southerners who fight because they're fighting to protect their homes. There are other Southerners who work valiantly on the side of the Union because they are anti-slavery and pro-Union.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

I guess the confederate flag is proof that history isn't always written by the Victor.

The North won the war, but the South won the peace.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by KDCat

The North won the war, but the South won the peace.

Really though.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by KDCat

The North won the war, but the South won the peace.

What does that mean? Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't get it. (and I've understood just about everything in this thread up until now).

[DrPhil]

LOL. I love this thread. Thanks, GC.

[amIblue?]

Thanks for starting it, DrPhil!

[Low C Sharp]

A flag is a piece of communication. If it's not communicating the message that you want it to, the problem isn't the fact that audience misunderstood, it's that you have chosen the wrong symbol to communicate.

That's right. If I speak some foreign language where the phrase "White Supremacy" means "Love and rainbows," and I put a "White Supremacy" sign in front of my house in an English-speaking country, I have nothing to complain about when people think I'm advocating racial hatred. But that's not what I meant! To me, it means love and rainbows! Well, so what? My neighbors speak English, they can read the sign, and those words mean something to them. If I don't want people to think I'm a white supremacist, I shouldn't say so in their local language. "White Supremacy" can still have a totally different meaning to me in my own home.

The fact is, a lot of people in this country, for very good reason, see words on that flag along the lines of "White Supremacy" or even "Die N***** Die." That's because it has been used to communicate those messages to tremendous effect for decades. If that's not the message you want to express, just use a different Confederate flag.

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question.

Honest answer: I believe that those who are not racist are either: 1. ignorant of the Southern history they supposedly honor, or 2. they know that the flag was used to terrorize fellow Americans, but they choose not to think about whether that part of its history has any relevance today.

Here's my honest question: is there any non-racist message that this flag expresses that cannot be expressed using a different Confederate flag? Why don't people use the other ones instead?

[Low C Sharp]

To me, "The South won the peace" means that the majority-Northern federal government was willing to give the South near-complete autonomy in racial matters rather than enforcing the 14th and 15th Amendments (there or anywhere) following the end of Reconstruction. The South had another 90 years to largely go its own way before the federal government started enforcing those amendments in the early 1960s -- which is why Civil War rhetoric and imagery were so popular among segregationists at that time.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

To me, "The South won the peace" means that the majority-Northern federal government was willing to give the South near-complete autonomy in racial matters rather than enforcing the 14th and 15th Amendments (there or anywhere) following the end of Reconstruction. The South had another 90 years to largely go its own way before the federal government started enforcing those amendments in the early 1960s -- which is why Civil War rhetoric and imagery were so popular among segregationists at that time.

I suppose I really had Reconstruction in mind when I first read the "won the peace" deal. Because I'm pretty sure from my study of history that Reconstruction really sucked for everyone. From post-Reconstruction up to the Civil Rights era, yes, the states were left to do what they wanted on racial matters.

I consider 1865 - 1965 rough times in the South, black or white. (I realize the economy is a separate issue, but so much of the race issue in the South was tied to the economy that you can't always separate it out.) There were more have nots than haves in those days no matter what the heritage might be. So, yes, the whites in the South were free to create untenable laws (Jim Crow, I'm looking at you), but I don't consider that winning the peace. I think it was more of a "holy-shit-we're-tired-of-dealing-with-this" from the northern states rather than any kind of southern victory. For too long, the attitude among poorer whites was (wrongly), "well, I may be poor, but at least I'm not a N*&^%." Logic would tell a person that such an attitude and a dollar will buy you a coke.

Also, I completely 100% cosign this:

Honest answer: I believe that those who are not racist are either: 1. ignorant of the Southern history they supposedly honor, or 2. they know that the flag was used to terrorize fellow Americans, but they choose not to think about whether that part of its history has any relevance today.

With either option, the end result is ignorance.

I am writing as a person who used to idealize the South, and then I studied it. As a child, I thought it was all about getting to wear pretty dresses and flirt with suitors. (Thanks, Hollywood!) The more I studied Southern culture, the more I saw that turned my stomach. Read up on the slave trade, tour a plantation and include the slave quarters, read testimonials about life as a slave, read accounts of life as a sharecropper, and then tell me how wonderful it all was.

There are ideals that I still revere: gentility, hospitality, grace, and charity, but when those ideals are gained on the backs of suffering humans, then the price is too high.

I realize that I can't experience what my Black friends have lived through (because, yes, some of my very best friends are Black ), and I can never truly understand it. I can have great empathy for the experience. I can choose to respect the challenges they face that I will never encounter as a white person. I can open my eyes and acknowledge just because I haven't experienced something that it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[thetaj]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Here's my honest question: is there any non-racist message that this flag expresses that cannot be expressed using a different Confederate flag? Why don't people use the other ones instead?

Truth of the matter is that a lot of the rednecks out there are actually really humble, gentle people. I have a lot of rednecks in my family lol. But yeah, there are other ways to express Southern pride; I have the flag of the state of Florida up in my room. I bought it when I moved to Virginia and missed the real south lol. But say I grew up in Alabama and bought their state flag to hang in my dorm. That might almost be just as bad lol. Someone might be offended that I'm proud to be from Alabama. Idk.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Truth of the matter is that a lot of the rednecks out there are actually really humble, gentle people. I have a lot of rednecks in my family lol. But yeah, there are other ways to express Southern pride; I have the flag of the state of Florida up in my room. I bought it when I moved to Virginia and missed the real south lol. But say I grew up in Alabama and bought their state flag to hang in my dorm. That might almost be just as bad lol. Someone might be offended that I'm proud to be from Alabama. Idk.

LOL, I have NEVER heard Florida called "the real south."