The Confederate Flag

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Are we in the same thread? LOL. What do you think this thread is about?

I hope you all now see why people like MysticCat get tired of explaining stuff on either side(s) of the issue. LOL.

I just don't get it.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by thetaj

I agree with not waving it in the North lol. It means two completely different things. I feel like in the South the flag does not at all represent the Civil War in any way, especially for my generation.

As far as how minorities view it: The population in the South has a very strong representation of minorities. I haven't spoken to anyone about this specifically, but I feel like if they took offense to it, something would at least be said about that. And I have never in my life heard of there being an issue with the flag being flown locally. Kids at my high school would fly them behind their pick-up trucks and the black students didn't seem to mind, they were friends. I've seen several giant ones flying along major interstates! I'm actually surprised at how negatively it's viewed in the North, and I feel like that sheds a lot of light on the bass-akwards Southern stereotype.

It just means we're proud to be from the South. I know I am! But I don't fly a flag about it because it's kind of an eye-roller. Not because I think my neighbors would think I'm a racist.

It's not that way across the entire South. My first negative encounter with the confederate flag was in high school centered around a group of senior white guys wearing home made t-shirts with the flag and the phrase "It's a white thing you wouldn't understand" and ugly KKK inspired nicknames like Grand Dragon airbrushed on the back to counter the popular "It's a black thing you wouldn't understand" t-shirts of the early 90's. This was at a very integrated, high achiever HS five minutes from Southern University. The meaning of that flag hasn't changed just because a new generation of children have decided to "take back" a symbol. It is not accepted or embraced by all white Southerners, and plenty of black southerners as well as white southerners are offended by it.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Two things have always and will always be the case: "some of my bestfriends are Black" and "the Black people I know don't seem to mind" have been cliche' for generations. One thing to remember is that with the structure of segregation and social exclusion across the country (including the north), the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group. Why? For one, it tends to require much less explanation to those who don't understand and don't get it. There are instances where people will share heartfelt opinions and issues to people outside of their racial and ethnic group. But, that is a very careful process because even the best interracial friendships can be made uncomfortable by such discussions. That is why you will hear people (predominantly white people) say things like "I don't see you as Black, you're just Lauren" or "we come together and don't see race." Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

Lol at the "Black People Meeting." I totally agree with this but also I've always thought that most Black Southerners (born and bred, especially older folks) express less opposition (at least publicly) to certain things because they are so used to certain things as the norm and also at least some are still stuck in a "stay in your place" mentality where they know not to rock the boat or rock it too much for fear of consequence. Although I'm from the North, I have family still in the South and when hearing about present day stories/incidents from them and asking them why is this? why is that? the answers are usually very sort of on the "that's just the way it is" level, but not that it's okay. Of course, the conversation usually ends with me saying something like..."I wouldn't live there if I had to put up with that!" So the bottom line is, I think that when you're used to certain things and have accepted them as the norm because you feel there is nothing you can do to change it (and it's been a certain way for years and years and you've decided to pick your battles carefully), you might have a less aggressive reaction to something (at least publicly) as opposed to those that aren't used to it at all. Hence the reason why some/many Black Northerners tend to have a much stronger reaction to some things such as some Blacks in the South still accepting the word "colored." A colleague of mine called me "colored" one day and I had to teach her an up North lesson. She is from the South but I still say she should've known better since she's lived up here for so long. She said that she and her family always talk like that but are not racist. It goes back to some Southerners (and others) being just plain insensitive. Just because your neighbors don't say anything, it doesn't mean they are okay with things.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Lol at the "Black People Meeting." I totally agree with this but also I've always thought that most Black Southerners (born and bred, especially older folks) express less opposition (at least publicly) to certain things because they are so used to certain things as the norm and also at least some are still stuck in a "stay in your place" mentality where they know not to rock the boat or rock it too much for fear of consequence. Although I'm from the North, I have family still in the South and when hearing about present day stories/incidents from them and asking them why is this? why is that? the answers are usually very sort of on the "that's just the way it is" level, but not that it's okay. Of course, the conversation usually ends with me saying something like..."I wouldn't live there if I had to put up with that!" So the bottom line is, I think that when you're used to certain things and have accepted them as the norm because you feel there is nothing you can do to change it (and it's been a certain way for years and years and you've decided to pick your battles carefully), you might have a less aggressive reaction to something (at least publicly) as opposed to those that aren't used to it at all. Hence the reason why some/many Black Northerners tend to have a much stronger reaction to some things such as some Blacks in the South still accepting the word "colored." A colleague of mine called me "colored" one day and I had to teach her an up North lesson. She is from the South but I still say she should've known better since she's lived up here for so long. She said that she and her family always talk like that but are not racist. It goes back to some Southerners (and others) being just plain insensitive. Just because your neighbors don't say anything, it doesn't mean they are okay with things.

Yes. "This is how things have always been" often means "I will let these people act how they act and just discuss this later with my friends and family."

I too would correct a nonBlack person who called me "colored." There are other comments and behaviors that are worth ignoring as to not drive myself crazy.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Fair enough on both counts. How about this... I will refrain from making any more judgments or statements about Southern pride until I properly educate myself on the topic. Sounds like that should have been an obvious decision that I should have made beforehand but I'll admit that I've always seen this as a very black and white / good v. evil situation. I'm serious when I say that I'm mentally admonishing myself for taking such a narrow view.

And I'm serious when I say I really appreciate this.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

... the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group.

I agree.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

...Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

I think the same is probably true of white folks. Which, if true across the ethnic/racial board, makes me wonder whether there is any hope for true nondiscrimination**. If racial and ethnic minorities are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, and white people are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, the likelihood of true desegregation** seems extremely low (if attainable at all). If each group is doing this, what goal can we accomplish (and, for that matter, what goal are we trying to accomplish)?

**I wish I could find better terms here. I'm talking about real feelings of inclusion/peace/understanding, and not PC/legal constructs.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I agree.

I think the same is probably true of white folks. Which, if true across the ethnic/racial board, makes me wonder whether there is any hope for true nondiscrimination**. If racial and ethnic minorities are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, and white people are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, the likelihood of true desegregation** seems extremely low (if attainable at all). If each group is doing this, what goal can we accomplish (and, for that matter, what goal are we trying to accomplish)?

**I wish I could find better terms here. I'm talking about real feelings of inclusion/peace/understanding, and not PC/legal constructs.

I think the discussions are being had intraracially but not with the goal in mind of fixing the problem beyond solutions that benefit your own group. I think most times it's just a "see, look at what they did now" kind of thing.

Add in the the factor of older generations simply being tired of dealing with the "same ole, same ole" and politicians who know how to manipulate the "nuance of race" to achieve political ends, and it's no wonder that the "problem of the 20th century" is also the problem of the 21st century.

Successive generations start off idealistic, but then life factors (work, getting ahead), fueled, as I said, often by a political structure with less than ideal goals, tend to put most people in a self-preservation mode that relegates loftier goals to second tier status.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by honeychile

Don't even get me started about the flags I've seen in Chicago!

Exsqueeze me? Our flags are just fine, thankyouverymuch.

You're just jealous you don't have a super awesome city flag that everyone recognizes and wears on t-shirts, back packs, and faces.



ETA: This picture might be better - there are three white stripes.

[Ch2tf]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The relative few white people who do live in historically and predominantly Black neighborhoods have their Black Card Cliff Notes and have a general idea what to do and what not to do.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

They brought it up right after lunch.

I'm so happy I wasn't eating my breakfast in front of the computer when I read these because it would be all over the screen and keyboard.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

I might not be rich, but I'd definitely have a WHOLE lot more money than I do now.

ETA: And I'd be able to afford to pay someone to train K_S how to take proper minutes.

[Low C Sharp]

There were plenty of northerners who wanted to abolish slavery for non-moral reasons, just as there were plenty of southerners who wanted to abolish slavery for moral reasons.

The whole Civil War thing is a red herring. The problem with the battle flag has little to do with the Confederacy. The battle flag was adopted as a symbol of racial intimidation by the Klan and its sympathizers in the twentieth century. It was successfully used to place millions of Americans in a state of terror in their own homes. You can't erase that history from that flag. It's ruined. It's poisoned. Pick a different Confederate symbol to fly -- there are lots to choose from that never flew at lynchings and segregationist rallies. If you don't, I can only assume that, at best, you don't mind being associated with a reminder of white-supremacist violence.

I can't imagine what flag in Chicago (?) has offensive connotations. I've seen Puerto Rican, Mexican, and Irish flags, but that's about it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I think the same is probably true of white folks.

Yes, the white diaspora is among the segregated races and ethnicities of people across the globe whose majority of intimate time is spent intraracially.

And just so people don't pretend this is a level playing field:

White privilege is such that whites (as an aggregate) do not have that constant desire or need to educate because whites are the population and power majority. In the relative few instances where whites (usually temporarily) are the minority and someone expresses intolerance towards whites, sure it can be mean and hurt feelings, but that is buffered when white people realize white privilege and go back to majority white environments. That is one reason why the Confederate Flag is still a topic of discussion whereas whites (as an aggregate) are not complaining about nonwhites intruding upon their peace and tranquility (aside from the occasional "darn immigrants" rants).

Originally Posted by TonyB06

I think the discussions are being had intraracially but not with the goal in mind of fixing the problem beyond solutions that benefit your own group. I think most times it's just a "see, look at what they did now" kind of thing.

Successive generations start off idealistic, but then life factors (work, getting ahead), fueled, as I said, often by a political structure with less than ideal goals, tend to put most people in a self-preservation mode that relegates loftier goals to second tier status.

Exactly.

Besides, I have never been consumed with people "liking" or "understanding." That isn't the real powerful stuff because racism and discrimination are still going on while people are sitting in diversity and sensitivity training workships. I am concerned with making sure there are policies and laws that prohibit social exclusion on the basis of race and ethnicity, gender, sexual orientiation, and etc. Some whites (since whites are the majority in terms of power and population) will always be intolerant or dislike racial and ethnic minorities. That is absolutely fine with me, just leave our access to resources the hell alone and stop perpetuating an environment of fear and social isolation.

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

I'm so happy I wasn't eating my breakfast in front of the computer when I read these because it would be all over the screen and keyboard.



I might not be rich, but I'd definitely have a WHOLE lot more money than I do now.

ETA: And I'd be able to afford to pay someone to train K_S how to take proper minutes.

LOL.

Oh yes, he's a horrible secretary. "Those people."

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

The battle flag was adopted as a symbol of racial intimidation by the Klan and its sympathizers in the twentieth century. It was successfully used to place millions of Americans in a state of terror in their own homes.

This may be true. The Klan also used crosses to do the same thing, yet people don't cry, 'Racist!' when they see a southerner displaying one. Yes, I know there are problems with the analogy, but it serves a purpose nonetheless. That purpose being different emblems have different meanings to different people. The emblems themselves don't have intrinsic meaning - meaning is assigned by individuals. And different individuals assign different meanings to the same emblem.

I'm not trying to say that every CF-waver is a non-racist - not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying that there are non-racists who display the Confederate Flag. I think the woman in the original story is insensitive and displayed poor judgment, but that's not the case for all those who wave the flag.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It's not that way across the entire South. My first negative encounter with the confederate flag was in high school centered around a group of senior white guys wearing home made t-shirts with the flag and the phrase "It's a white thing you wouldn't understand" and ugly KKK inspired nicknames like Grand Dragon airbrushed on the back to counter the popular "It's a black thing you wouldn't understand" t-shirts of the early 90's. This was at a very integrated, high achiever HS five minutes from Southern University. The meaning of that flag hasn't changed just because a new generation of children have decided to "take back" a symbol. It is not accepted or embraced by all white Southerners, and plenty of black southerners as well as white southerners are offended by it.

I cosign 100%. I'd like to say to my fellow white folks: don't kid yourself by assuming that your black friends are cool with it just because it's always been around. Slavery at one point in our history had always been around too; I imagine one would have been hardpressed to find a slave who was OK with slavery just because it had always been that way.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I cosign 100%. I'd like to say to my fellow white folks: don't kid yourself by assuming that your black friends are cool with it just because it's always been around. Slavery at one point in our history had always been around too; I imagine one would have been hardpressed to find a slave who was OK with slavery just because it had always been that way.

Wow. You can come to next month's "Black meeting" and sit right in the front as my guest.

[TonyB06]

/slight twist.

I "get" the argument that the flag can mean different things to those flying it, heritage, cultural pride, etc..

Does that same reasoning attach if you see someone burning and American flag? Can they be burning it for reasons other than hatred of America? Is there any "acceptable reason" you can grasp, even if you don't agree, in your mind that would make you at least tolerant?

I suppose "burning" it rather than flying it would make some consider it a more overt political statement, but isn't flying a flag a political statement, of some sort, in the first place?


/end of twist