What teachers really want to tell parents.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by katydidKD

now you're taking the analogy ridiculously out of context. I am saying that teachers are professionals and should be treated as such, just like you'd treat your doctor or lawyer.

You said:

Originally Posted by katydidKD

People generally would not disagree with a doctor or lawyer as they would with a teacher.

So the point was more the way in which people disagree with teachers, and not the degree to which it happens?

I understand where you're coming from with the former, but the latter still seems wildly dismissive of the differences between professions, and I want to make sure I'm not putting any words into your mouth.

I definitely took "as" to mean "to the same extent" and if that was a misread, my bad.

[katydidKD]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You said:



So the point was more the way in which people disagree with teachers, and not the degree to which it happens?

I understand where you're coming from with the former, but the latter still seems wildly dismissive of the differences between professions, and I want to make sure I'm not putting any words into your mouth.

I definitely took "as" to mean "to the same extent" and if that was a misread, my bad.

Yes, i should have spoken more clearly.

[AlwaysSAI]

I have not read the entirety of this thread (& don't usually respond to these threads because I have very strong feelings). I stopped about pg. 3 at the Dr. Phil/SWTXBelle disagreement. But, I am going to add a few things.

It's hard to really understand the plight of a teacher if you aren't one. During my professional career, I have never gotten a raise. In fact, I've seen the responsibilities on my desk build while my pay has actually gone down.

Keep in mind while you read the below that I teach high school resource Algebra I.

I am an email teacher. It is a quick and easy way to contact a parent AND there's a written record of what conspired. That being said, I wish I could call parents. Can I call them? Yes, of course. The problem starts when parents want to talk to me for 45min (true story) about everything else going on that has hindered Little Johnny's completion of assignments. As a relatively new teacher, it has been hard to me to find a way to tell a parent who won't stop talking that "I'm sorry, but I need to go." In this day and age, it is routine for that parent to call the superintendent and tell him that I was rude to her for ending the conversation and don't care about Little Johnny. So, I've been at work since 6:30am and needed to leave at 4:30pm for a another commitment, but decided it was a good idea to quikly call Mrs. Jones to tell her that Johnny hasn't been completing assignments and before I can get off the phone, it's almost 5:30pm. There are two things I always want to say to Mrs. Jones: 1) I know Johnny is your only (or one of a few) little angel, but he's not my only little angel, so I've got work to do. 2) I do not disintegrate when the bell rings and I have responsibilities in the evenings.

The other issue is (and I think it's been mentioned) is that parents will lie. There is no record of a phone conversation except what I write down on my contact log (which is not written in stone). For example, last year, I was called into guidance because of a student in my class. I wasn't told any details of the parent's previous behavior. What I was told is: If the mom calls, put her on hold and get another teacher to come sit in the room while you talk to her. If this mom shows up on parent teacher conference day, ask her to wait while you go get another teacher. The message here: Never meet with this parent alone. Luckily, the child was never a problem for me and I worked very hard with her, so I was never on the mom's bad side.

There is a cartoon . The left side depicts education 30 years ago. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the student. The right side depicts present day education. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the teacher. (I wish I could find it)

There is very little personal accountability going on. In my mind, if you don't do the assignments you get zeros and your grade will go down. Natural consequence. Next time, you'll do your assignments. That is not seen as a valid argument for teachers. It will automatically (and has, even in my short career) become my fault that Little Suzie has 8 zeros. I have resorted to providing time for Little Suzie (and everyone else) to complete her assignments even if they were in school that day, but opted not to complete them the first time. And, I do this all for CYA, so that if mom is mad at me that Little Suzie failed, I can say: "I devoted x day and b day to make-up work entirely and she chose again not to complete it." (And, this is all backed up by the assignment schedule that is updated on my website daily.)

Little Suzie, Little Johnny, and all their Little Friends are going to be the college kids taking their professors notes from mommy on why the take home final isn't done. And, please tell me, how are they going to survive corporate america (or any country where they will be held responsible for tasks not completed.)

I love my job, but some days.....I just wonder.

ETA: I needed to quote/respond this:

Originally Posted by scrapcat

BTW: I'm a Special Ed teacher. Oh the stories I could tell!

DITTO! DITTO! DITTO!

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by AlwaysSAI

There is a cartoon . The left side depicts education 30 years ago. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the student. The right side depicts present day education. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the teacher. (I wish I could find it)

It is because we have gone from the Land of Opportunity to the Land of Entitlement.

Getting a good education used to be an opportunity. People made the most of it. Those who worked hard, succeeded. Those who didn't work hard, didn't.

Now education is seen as a right, an entitlement. And many of the people with this mentality about education can't be bothered to lift a finger to contribute to the process.

This is why I made my original comment. Until our culture changes, education will not change. Teachers cannot change it. Schools cannot change it. Until parents learn what it means to be responsible individuals and teach their children to be responsible individuals, it is only going to get worse.

The previous comment about teachers being the new race discussion is very accurate. Part of this stems from the union attitudes that no longer fly with many Americans. A few years ago the union in Michigan tried to pass a law that teachers would always get a raise no matter what the economic conditions in the state. It was soundly defeated. Because of what is going on in the economy, the average middle class taxpayer finally realizes that their tax dollars are paying for the teachers getting a guaranteed raise. When the average taxpayer can't even find a job or keep health insurance, why in the world would they vote for such a thing? It doesn't mean they don't value teachers. It means if they have to choose between having extra $$$ in their pocket every month to feed their family or give the teachers a raise... What do you think they will choose?

Funding for education and teachers used to be a sacred cow and it isn't any longer. The ever increasing funding for education is over. I'm not advocating either view. I'm just stating the facts that are there for everyone to see.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

The previous comment about teachers being the new race discussion is very accurate. Part of this stems from the union attitudes that no longer fly with many Americans. A few years ago the union in Michigan tried to pass a law that teachers would always get a raise no matter what the economic conditions in the state. It was soundly defeated. Because of what is going on in the economy, the average middle class taxpayer finally realizes that their tax dollars are paying for the teachers getting a guaranteed raise. When the average taxpayer can't even find a job or keep health insurance, why in the world would they vote for such a thing? It doesn't mean they don't value teachers. It means if they have to choose between having extra $$$ in their pocket every month to feed their family or give the teachers a raise... What do you think they will choose?

Funding for education and teachers used to be a sacred cow and it isn't any longer. The ever increasing funding for education is over. I'm not advocating either view. I'm just stating the facts that are there for everyone to see.

In the small town I grew up in, the people in the big houses on what we called Snob Hill are, increasingly, teachers. It's kind of hard to get people to feel sorry for them having to pay union dues and their own health insurance when most of them are living better than 90% of the people in town.

However, that doesn't mean that I think they should cut the funding to the SCHOOL. Funding for education and teachers' salaries are two different things. I'll gladly pay anytime for more teachers to keep the class sizes smaller, updated textbooks, etc. I won't gladly pay, however, so the current tenured teachers are making almost 6 figures a year. I believe most people agree.

[BetteDavisEyes]

Originally Posted by AlwaysSAI

There is very little personal accountability going on. In my mind, if you don't do the assignments you get zeros and your grade will go down. Natural consequence. Next time, you'll do your assignments. That is not seen as a valid argument for teachers. It will automatically (and has, even in my short career) become my fault that Little Suzie has 8 zeros. I have resorted to providing time for Little Suzie (and everyone else) to complete her assignments even if they were in school that day, but opted not to complete them the first time. And, I do this all for CYA, so that if mom is mad at me that Little Suzie failed, I can say: "I devoted x day and b day to make-up work entirely and she chose again not to complete it." (And, this is all backed up by the assignment schedule that is updated on my website daily.)

Something I've encountered this school year is parents furious because their little precious snowflake lost recess and/or classroom privileges due to not doing any work in the classroom. My kids know that failure to complete assignements in a timely manner results in them losing their Fun Friday activities. Some parents were demanding that I let their kids have their Fun Friday and they will do the work at home. Ummm...no. I told them in no uncertain terms that since it was CLASSWORK, it had to be completed in the classroom and I was NOT going to change my expectations for anyone.

Needless to say, I have some parents who dislike me intensely but frankly, I don't give a shit.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by BetteDavisEyes

Something I've encountered this school year is parents furious because their little precious snowflake lost recess and/or classroom privileges due to not doing any work in the classroom. My kids know that failure to complete assignements in a timely manner results in them losing their Fun Friday activities. Some parents were demanding that I let their kids have their Fun Friday and they will do the work at home. Ummm...no. I told them in no uncertain terms that since it was CLASSWORK, it had to be completed in the classroom and I was NOT going to change my expectations for anyone.

Needless to say, I have some parents who dislike me intensely but frankly, I don't give a shit.

I sincerely hope you are working for someone who appreciates what you are doing. I think your taking the harder but better path with your students is admirable, and I hope your principal does too.

ETA: teaching well is a pretty hard job, and frequently it seems to me that we'd be better off making sure that compensation and work conditions for good teachers are at least comparable to those in the fields that these good teachers could pursue if they left teaching.

But the tricky part is that you may not really have to teach well to stay employed as a teacher. I think most teacher can think of several colleagues who consistently do a weak job and yet don't really face any professional consequences. There is also another set of teachers who work really hard, but there's nothing that we presently measure that will quantify that they've make any difference at all.

So then you wonder, if some teachers can hold this job doing that little, that poorly, or with that little apparent effect, why should the taxpayers pony up more in compensation across the board as if everyone in the field is teaching like a rock star? It's not that retaining the top set of rock stars has no value; it's just that it's hard to figure out exactly what that value is.

And on some level the bottom line is that the present pay system is what the market supports. I can't imagine anything other than a gigantic teacher shortage having much effect to drive salaries or working conditions up, and with the rest of the economy in such a bad way, I don't see it happening.

Which is not to say that I wouldn't enjoy a big, fat raise.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But the tricky part is that you may not really have to teach well to stay employed as a teacher. I think most teacher can think of several colleagues who consistently do a weak job and yet don't really face any professional consequences. There is also another set of teachers who work really hard, but there's nothing that we presently measure that will quantify that they've make any difference at all.

So then you wonder, if some teachers can hold this job doing that little, that poorly, or with that little apparent effect, why should the taxpayers pony up more in compensation across the board as if everyone in the field is teaching like a rock star? It's not that retaining the top set of rock stars has no value; it's just that it's hard to figure out exactly what that value is.

I know I'm double-posting, but I just read your post, and I completely agree. This is what makes things difficult. As I mentioned, tenure can be a huge controversy. My mom has mentioned on multiple occasions that there are definitely teachers out there who will work their asses off for 3 years - including coaching a team, staying to help students after school, volunteering at after-school events - and then once they receive tenure, they put in the minimum, and that's it.

It's unfortunate, because it's people like that who give other teachers a bad name, and who really end up cheating the students. I'm not saying everyone has to put in a ton of time outside of the 8 hours they're in the classroom, but when you only work hard to get something for yourself in this profession, I think it says something about how much you really care for the students you're teaching.

It truly takes a special person to be a good teacher. I applaud the ones who make a positive impact every day, and especially the ones who made a big impact on my life. Fortunately for me, I can say that's most, if not all of the ones I've had the privilege of learning from.

...And I'm sorry if I was ever a pain in the ass

[AlwaysSAI]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What was the disagreement about? I would love to know what SWTXBelle is disagreeing with. Seriously.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

And as to being "stuck" - I've decided that you are determined to misconstrue anything I write, so I'll just bow to the inevitable and say I apologize in 12 different positions for thinking that my 20+ years as a parent and as an educator gave me any special insight to what may have prompted the article or how to improve parent/teacher communication.

Seems like there was a disagreement. To me, anyway.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The "plight of a teacher" and "it's hard to understand" themes are well-founded but they set a tone that is not conducive to an actual discussion depending on who you are speaking with. Educators want people to work toward understanding and assist where possible but yet some of us (educators) want to insist that there is a struggle and a plight that is so difficult to understand even to the point that when people say "I understand but..." we (educators) respond with "there is no 'but,' you probably don't really understand, even if you do...just end there." We (educators) really can't have it both ways in practice. We (educators) can have it both ways in theory but not in practice.

I agree with you 100%. I rarely ask for people in other professions to understand because the "grass is always greener". I think my mom is a big wig who sits in an office all day and gets the entire 8 hours to complete her work and hardly takes any work home. She would disagree.

When I feel like I need someone to truly understand the day I had at school, I call another teacher.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

(I read and agree with the rest of your post but this is the part that I wanted to respond to. )