Gay Emory Student Dragged From Frat Party

[33girl]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

You are right, and I agree with you. But, if you are going to put yourself in harm's way - don't be surprised if you get harmed.

Let's take it to a less reactive example:

Just about every time it rains in Houston it floods. We don't need much rain for the streets to fill with water.

The weather man comes on TV and says "Stay where you are. Don't go out. The streets are flooded. It is dangerous."

But hey, I'm out of Cap'n Crunch cereal, and by gosh, by golly, I want my cereal NOW!!! So I go out in my car, trying to drive on flooded streets, and my car gets stuck, it floods with water.

So, using Drole's logic, I should blame the weather man for ruining my car.

Actually, you should probably blame the store that is staying open in the face of the weatherman and everyone else advising people to stay the @#$% indoors, and enticing you out with its yummy Captain Crunch. The store is implicitly saying by its actions "it's OK for you to drive even if you pass Noah on the way."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I picked that analogy just to show how narrow-minded I feel Drole's logic is. It is so black and white. There are reasons behind why things happen, and understanding the reason helps to understand the why.

Do you think you're in the grey area because you are talking about victims sharing the blame? You aren't just talking about understanding why things happen.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I just don't think this incident would have ever happened if the gay guy just did not show up.

It is obvious that incident wouldn't have happened with that particular guy if he had not been there. Got it. What isn't obvious is the overstating of that obvious and the "share some of the blame" aspect of it all.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

To the bold: that has been my whole point!

No, it wasn't. And if you felt a EUREKA moment when you read that in my post, you REALLY haven't been reading my posts.

Re-read my posts about the difference between analyzing victim precipitation (which researchers and practitioners do everyday) and victim blame (which is what you were doing).

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well, that is a fair question. Because I would want to know too. How much did you know, and when?

Thus the difference between what you were saying and what I was saying.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I agree.

If you agree with that then you are contradicting yourself. You went from saying the fraternity guys were wrong (which we all agree about) to saying this "gay guy" should've known better. If you understand that the "gay guy" didn't put the fraternity guys at equal risk of victimization (he was outnumbered even if he was being annoying), you understand how the blame cannot be shared. The same logic applies to rape. Rape victims do not place the rapists at equal risk of victimization--there's no competition to see who can rape whom first.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Actually, you should probably blame the store that is staying open in the face of the weatherman and everyone else advising people to stay the @#$% indoors, and enticing you out with its yummy Captain Crunch. The store is implicitly saying by its actions "it's OK for you to drive even if you pass Noah on the way."

And blame the employers who are not required by law to shut down because of the weather or aren't sympathetic to the plight of the flooded employee.

What about those darn children who may need to be picked up during a flood? Nature doesn't announce its wrath.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Honestly, that is how I feel. Yes, I'd feel bad for the girl, but at the same time I'd shake my head and ask 'what was she thinking??'


No, it is never right for anyone, male or female, to get raped for any reason under any circumstance. That is why use of good common sense on a situation is prudent. You just don't have to put yourself in certain situations.


But then, I think I know where you are coming from Drole - do what ever the hell you please, and if you get in trouble, blame someone else. I guess you, Drole, feel that people don't have to take responsibility for their own actions - it is always someone else's fault.

Seriously, fuck off.

No one is responsible for rape but the rapist. A woman should not have to dress a certain way or have to avoid certain neighborhoods to not get raped.

You can say my name 12 more times in your next post and I'll still tell you you're part of the fucking problem.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So, using Drole's logic, I should blame the weather man for ruining my car.

Yes, being raped is exactly like a flood. Women should have to be on guard for surprise rape all the time. I mean if they mess up, they basically deserve it right? They really should take responsibility and not be so rapable. Always asking for it.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I picked that analogy just to show how narrow-minded I feel Drole's logic is. It is so black and white. There are reasons behind why things happen, and understanding the reason helps to understand the why.

So when a woman is raped by her boyfriend, that's also her fault? A wife by her husband? If the woman is wearing jeans is it impossible for her to have been raped because she obviously had to help the guy take her jeans off and that means she wanted it? She was raped by an ex, but they'd had sex before so it's ok right?

Or is it only when they're walking down the street in a short skirt that they're asking for it? Or drunk at a party?

You're right, asking people to take responsibility not to rape people is the wrong answer here.

No, you, Drole and agzg are saying it is someone else's fault. I said the the gay guy has to share some of the blame because he put himself in a situation he did not have to. The fraternity guys were wrong too. I just don't think this incident would have ever happened if the gay guy just did not show up.

No, the guy does not deserve any blame for being assaulted.

Originally Posted by agzg

I don't think the kid needed to be choked out or dragged out of the party. He may have been kicked out but he didn't ask or need to be assaulted.

And no, it's never the victim's fault ever in cases of rape, EVER. I don't care if he or she dressed provocatively. I don't care if he or she drank too much. I don't care if he or she went to the rapist fraternity house. I don't care. It's never the victim's fault.

It's not this kid's fault he got his ass beat. At all. And the kid who did it took the opportunity just like a rapist would his or her victim. He picked on someone he saw as vulnerable or weak. Period.

Just because there are ways a potential victim can decrease the probability they're attacked doesn't mean it's their fault, IN ANY WAY, if they weren't using them at the time.

People need to keep their hands to themselves.

The flooding analogy is a major fail.

Everything you said.

[DrPhil]

LOL. No offense, sigmadiva, but "fuck off" is one of my favorite phrases. LOL.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL. No offense, sigmadiva, but "fuck off" is one of my favorite phrases. LOL.

Glad to help.

[KSUViolet06]

Wow at the rape justifications going around in here. Geez.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Wow at the rape justifications going around in here. Geez.

No, you see, the rape isn't JUSTIFIED, it's just a natural conclusion to a night of DRINKING where you pass out where you SHOULDN'T.

It's QED but you go to hell at the end.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

And blame the employers who are not required by law to shut down because of the weather or aren't sympathetic to the plight of the flooded employee.

What about those darn children who may need to be picked up during a flood? Nature doesn't announce its wrath.

Actually, if you watch the animals, then yes, nature does announce its wrath.


And, psst.... I don't know if you have noticed, I've been trying to let you have the last word, as you often like.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Actually, if you watch the animals, then yes, nature does announce its wrath.

And for the rest of us who don't sit around watching animals.....

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

And, psst.... I don't know if you have noticed, I've been trying to let you have the last word, as you often like.

Should I have noticed that? I like for people to stop typing when the discourse no longer interests them. Help yourself.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Seriously, fuck off.

Nah. You're my favorite SK!!!

No one is responsible for rape but the rapist. A woman should not have to dress a certain way or have to avoid certain neighborhoods to not get raped.

In a perfect world, she should not have to. In an imperfect world, she should exercise caution.

There is a neighborhood near mine that is known for gang activity, drugs, prostitution, you know, all the vices. Yeah, I've got every right to be out on any street at any time of day, even in this neighborhood. Now, knowing what goes on there, would it be wise for me just to drive around because I want to? No. Nothing can stop me, but it would still be a pretty stupid idea.

You can say my name 12 more times in your next post and I'll still tell you you're part of the fucking problem.

Great! I'll say your screen name during Halloween and see what I can dredge up from the cemetery.

Yes, being raped is exactly like a flood. Women should have to be on guard for surprise rape all the time. I mean if they mess up, they basically deserve it right? They really should take responsibility and not be so rapable. Always asking for it.

No, being raped is not like a flood. But for obvious reasons it is a very hot button issue that really had nothing to do with the original topic of this thread. I used the flood analogy as a silly ploy to divert the conversation from a sensitive issue. I guess you missed that part. No problem....

So when a woman is raped by her boyfriend, that's also her fault? A wife by her husband? If the woman is wearing jeans is it impossible for her to have been raped because she obviously had to help the guy take her jeans off and that means she wanted it? She was raped by an ex, but they'd had sex before so it's ok right? Or is it only when they're walking down the street in a short skirt that they're asking for it? Or drunk at a party?

No, none of that is alright. I've said so previously. All I said was that a woman should use good judgment in her actions, if she can control them. Being falling down drunk at a party to me is not good judgment. She has made herself very vulnerable. Not a good idea.

There are situations that you can control. If so, take control.

You're right, asking people to take responsibility not to rape people is the wrong answer here.

Huh???

No, the guy does not deserve any blame for being assaulted.

He does not deserve all of the blame, but he did walk into a situation that did easily escalate.

It's like picking a fight, then getting mad 'cause you got your @$$ kicked.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

And for the rest of us who don't sit around watching animals.....

Then I guess you're screwed..... (No pun intended!!!)

Should I have noticed that? I like for people to stop typing when the discourse no longer interests them. Help yourself.

So stop quoting me, expecting me to answer your points....

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So stop quoting me, expecting me to answer your points....

What in the fuck are you talking about? I was saying that you should keep typing until you get tired of the discourse.

On the real, since your dumbass tried to go there with me, I was never asking you anything so you never had to answer a thing.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

In a perfect world, she should not have to. In an imperfect world, she should exercise caution.

There is a neighborhood near mine that is known for gang activity, drugs, prostitution, you know, all the vices. Yeah, I've got every right to be out on any street at any time of day, even in this neighborhood. Now, knowing what goes on there, would it be wise for me just to drive around because I want to? No. Nothing can stop me, but it would still be a pretty stupid idea.

And if you went there and were assaulted it wouldn't be your fucking fault.

No, being raped is not like a flood. But for obvious reasons it is a very hot button issue that really had nothing to do with the original topic of this thread. I used the flood analogy as a silly ploy to divert the conversation from a sensitive issue. I guess you missed that part. No problem....

And it was a shitty one. As pointed out by everyone else in this thread.

No, none of that is alright. I've said so previously. All I said was that a woman should use good judgment in her actions, if she can control them. Being falling down drunk at a party to me is not good judgment. She has made herself very vulnerable. Not a good idea.

BUT NOT AN INVITATION TO RAPE HER. There is zero blame on her for her rape. None. Zero. Nada. Rien.

Huh???

You complained about it being black and white. And this is. There is NO case where a woman is complicit or to blame for her own rape. None. NEVER. The responsibility is ALWAYS on the rapist. ALWAYS. Tojours.


There is no gray area. It's rape. And until you stop blaming the victim, continue to go fuck yourself.

He does not deserve all of the blame, but he did walk into a situation that did easily escalate.

Any of the blame. None. He deserves no blame.

It's like picking a fight, then getting mad 'cause you got your @$$ kicked.

Unless this person's physical presence was the legal equivalent of 'fighting words' or a physical threat, then no, it's nothing at all like picking a fight.

And say ass or don't say it all. You're grown, if ignorant.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What in the fuck are you talking about? I was saying that you should keep typing until you get tired of the discourse.

On the real, since your dumbass tried to go there with me, I was never asking you anything so you never had to answer a thing.

Okay, Pookie....