Prop 8 is to get a ruling today

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

**Sideline comment**

Why should we care what other countries are doing?

Also some would not agree that because other countries are doing it, they are ahead of US.

Being ahead of us on one issue (if you believe that equal marriage rights are a good thing) doesn't mean they're Eden.

And you don't have to care about what happens outside of our country, but plenty of people do, because it directly affects human beings and indirectly affects us.

Also @pj LOL.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And you don't have to care about what happens outside of our country, but plenty of people do, because it directly affects human beings and indirectly affects us.

Does it indirectly affect us?

Many things have happened in this world that hasn't caused most people to blink.

Expound.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Does it indirectly affect us?

Many things have happened in this world that hasn't caused most people to blink.

Expound.

It does, just using this topic, the more common same sex marriage is in the rest of the world the more "normal" it becomes and the more pressure is placed on our society to change. Our peception by the world at large changes too, and though some may not care about it, it does affect us.

And though we may not be able to know or follow everything that happens, I believe that being informed is preferable to being ignorant. I just read a story about domestic workers in the UK being treated essentially as slaves by employers withholding passports and paying pittances if anything. It's not a happy story by any means, but I feel I only gain by being informed. The US is too insular at times, IMO.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It does, just using this topic, the more common same sex marriage is in the rest of the world the more "normal" it becomes and the more pressure is placed on our society to change. Our peception by the world at large changes too, and though some may not care about it, it does affect us.

And though we may not be able to know or follow everything that happens, I believe that being informed is preferable to being ignorant. I just read a story about domestic workers in the UK being treated essentially as slaves by employers withholding passports and paying pittances if anything. It's not a happy story by any means, but I feel I only gain by being informed. The US is too insular at times, IMO.

I like that example.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Does it indirectly affect us?

Many things have happened in this world that hasn't caused most people to blink.

Expound.

That's like saying "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

People get ideas from a number of sources including international trends. The very fact that some people know what the global trends are regarding homosexuality and homosexual unions can shape the perception of norms and values in this society. That can change the laws in this society if the dominant majority deems it nonthreatening to remove the stigma of homosexual union. It is not an overnight process but there are a lot of things that no longer make people blink in America that used to make people cry and lynch. Those domestic changes were not isolated from global dynamics. That is even moreso the case now in this global economy and increasingly "global society."

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's like saying "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

People get ideas from a number of sources including international trends. The very fact that some people know what the global trends are regarding homosexuality and homosexual unions can shape the perception of norms and values in this society. That can change the laws in this society if the dominant majority deems it nonthreatening to remove the stigma of homosexual union. It is not an overnight process but there are a lot of things that no longer make people blink in America that used to make people cry and lynch. Those domestic changes were not isolated from global dynamics. That is even moreso the case now in this global economy and increasingly "global society."

I like this as well.

[Amicus]

Among the things that the U.S. adopted from Europe: pre-school and kindergarten education, old age insurance (aka social security), pensions, national health care (believe it or not, some of us actually support the idea of national health insurance!), etc.

[DrPhil]

Bluphire, you're either easily convinced or you weren't as married (no pun intended) to the "why does it matter" side of the issue as you initially portrayed you were. LOL.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Untrue and spoken like somebody who's never been on the other side of discrimination.

Wait . . . what? I was making fun of your preferential (and likely incorrect) application of a global principal to an innocuous sentence - here's a synopsis of what happened:

POSTER: "Other nations adopted gay marriage much sooner than we did."
YOU: "BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE HOMOSEXUALS ARE BETTER OFF THERE AS A RESULT!"

I mean . . . you're arguing a point nobody made. That's all I was saying, duder. Feel free to rage against the machine though.

Face Value gets folks killed all the time because they never dig deeper to find out the truth in life.

Now, at what point do you think I said "Live your life at face-value alone, free of a critical eye"? Honestly, nobody made ANY argument that Argentina is a "greater nation" than the US or that they were miles ahead in gay rights as a whole - just that they did the marriage thing first. Ahead. In temporal terms. While you should look at society, social norms, etc. with a critical eye, sometimes it's ok to view a throw-away sentence for what it's worth, and your blood pressure might even drop.

Words have meaning. And understanding that meaning literally doesn't kill people "all the time" at all.

That's how Rwanda and now Darfur can get away with genocide.

Yes, they get away with genocide because message board posters say things like "well, the ethnic minorities got water from Clinton - they were way ahead." That's how Darfur happened, totally.

It's kind of ironic that you're oversimplifying after accusing me of gross oversimplification.

Let's try again, though - things that are demonstrably true: other nations are ahead of the United States in terms of adopting marriage rights for homosexuals.

Things that are not demonstrably true: Rwanda happened because people assumed small advances in marriage rights for a minority indicated a larger trend, so folks looked the other way while millions were murdered.

Occam's Razor. For real.

EDIT: After re-reading, this might come off as harsh and I really don't mean it to be (happy hour wins again) - I feel what you're saying, but think about what you're accusing me of here, and realize exactly how limited my point (and the original point) really is, and I think you'll see that you're a bit beyond the pale.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Bluphire, you're either easily convinced or you weren't as married (no pun intended) to the "why does it matter" side of the issue as you initially portrayed you were. LOL.

No I wasn't. It was a sideline comment. More so meant to separate those who are blindly passionate about a topic and those who are approaching it from a logical/rational Point of View.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

No I wasn't. It was a sideline comment. More so meant to separate those who are blindly passionate about a topic and those who are approaching it from a logical/rational Point of View.

Cannot one be both rational and passionate?

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Wait . . . what? I was making fun of your preferential (and likely incorrect) application of a global principal to an innocuous sentence - here's a synopsis of what happened:

POSTER: "Other nations adopted gay marriage much sooner than we did."
YOU: "BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE HOMOSEXUALS ARE BETTER OFF THERE AS A RESULT!"

I mean . . . you're arguing a point nobody made. That's all I was saying, duder. Feel free to rage against the machine though.



Now, at what point do you think I said "Live your life at face-value alone, free of a critical eye"? Honestly, nobody made ANY argument that Argentina is a "greater nation" than the US or that they were miles ahead in gay rights as a whole - just that they did the marriage thing first. Ahead. In temporal terms. While you should look at society, social norms, etc. with a critical eye, sometimes it's ok to view a throw-away sentence for what it's worth, and your blood pressure might even drop.

Words have meaning. And understanding that meaning literally doesn't kill people "all the time" at all.



Yes, they get away with genocide because message board posters say things like "well, the ethnic minorities got water from Clinton - they were way ahead." That's how Darfur happened, totally.

It's kind of ironic that you're oversimplifying after accusing me of gross oversimplification.

Let's try again, though - things that are demonstrably true: other nations are ahead of the United States in terms of adopting marriage rights for homosexuals.

Things that are not demonstrably true: Rwanda happened because people assumed small advances in marriage rights for a minority indicated a larger trend, so folks looked the other way while millions were murdered.

Occam's Razor. For real.

EDIT: After re-reading, this might come off as harsh and I really don't mean it to be (happy hour wins again) - I feel what you're saying, but think about what you're accusing me of here, and realize exactly how limited my point (and the original point) really is, and I think you'll see that you're a bit beyond the pale.

Proof 1:

"POSTER: "Other nations adopted gay marriage much sooner than we did."
YOU: "BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE HOMOSEXUALS ARE BETTER OFF THERE AS A RESULT!"

My question was specifically for those who actually DID say other countries are so ahead of us. Go back and actually read those previous before I made my sideline comment. Don't summarize.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Don't forget that the central and south American countries are ahead of us, too.

I accuse you of oversimplification because you asked me to simplify. (You know the infamous, I would live a happier life if I accept things at face-value.) That is what got the more so harsher response from me. It's like patting me on the top of my head and telling me "There, there, don't worry about things like that it will make your head explode.

So I do want to know the intent behind being ahead. That's where we get into issues a law to me does not denote ahead.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Cannot one be both rational and passionate?

Yes they can, unfortunately these days most people aren't.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

My question was specifically for those who actually DID say other countries are so ahead of us. Go back and actually read those previous before I made my sideline comment. Don't summarize.

Well, I suppose accusing me of terrible reading comprehension is at least an improvement.

It would be just as easy to counter "don't summarize" with "don't read into things that aren't there" but I'm not sure it furthers discussion at all.

I accuse you of oversimplification because you asked me to simplify. (You know the infamous, I would live a happier life if I accept things at face-value.) That is what got the more so harsher response from me. It's like patting me on the top of my head and telling me "There, there, don't worry about things like that it will make your head explode.

Right, I was making a joke, but really didn't intend it to be condescending. Rather, I wanted to make the point that yelling into the rain is even less effective when it's not raining.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Proof 1:

"POSTER: "Other nations adopted gay marriage much sooner than we did."
YOU: "BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE HOMOSEXUALS ARE BETTER OFF THERE AS A RESULT!"

My question was specifically for those who actually DID say other countries are so ahead of us. Go back and actually read those previous before I made my sideline comment. Don't summarize.

I accuse you of oversimplification because you asked me to simplify. (You know the infamous, I would live a happier life if I accept things at face-value.) That is what got the more so harsher response from me. It's like patting me on the top of my head and telling me "There, there, don't worry about things like that it will make your head explode.

So I do want to know the intent behind being ahead. That's where we get into issues a law to me does not denote ahead.

I stand by my post...Those countries are ahead of us in acceptance of gay marriage. It is official. Ta Da.