NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

At the risk of tokenizing folks, I would love to hear from Muslim GCers.

While it would be ideal in some ways, I also object to the idea that it's their job to teach the ignorant if they don't feel like it.

But I'm not up for the effort for idiocy like Ghostwriter.

[MasTNX]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

At the risk of tokenizing folks, I would love to hear from Muslim GCers.

I personally dislike labels (Creator of her own definition), but here goes....

Moderate Muslims feel that they, like Jews, should feel some solidarity with their Muslim brethren. In that respect, the plight of Muslims in Palestine or other places is of importance. However, like most Americans we are in love with the idea of self-determinism and that we can carve out a great life for ourselves here in America where we can live and worship as we please. Some other nations like Saudi Arabia may have a more "Islamic" daily life, but few American Muslims would trade their life here for a strict, oppressive life over there even if they believed that living by Shariah Law is best.

There is a common refrain that the suicide bomber is the only weapon that poor Palestinians have against a heavily armed Israel, but the moderate Muslim believes that ONLY in theory. No one they know would ever do such a thing and they would never want to live in a place where people did such things. Most Moderate Muslims believe that the real solution in Palestine is a political and economic one, that will not be won with weapons. The issues in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq are about bad people using religion to gain power and convince younger, poorer, dumber people to kill others in market places and mosques. Meanwhile this does not excuse the United States from being an occupying force in these countries.

The answer to terrorism is a better brand of Islam. You have people who can't read or write being taught that the religion says things that it does not. If they were properly educated in the religion and given economic opportunities, we would probably see a decrease in the amount of people thinking that the only thing they have to do in this life is to please God and that killing others pleases God.

Lastly, I question the religiousity of the 9/11 attackers anyway. What Muslim gets drunk and goes to a strip club before performing a "holy" act? None.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Islam is no more violent than Christianity or Judaism (and so on) People have always and will always use religion as an excuse to kill, to wage war, and to claim land. It's people that are violent, not the faiths, no matter what other flaws they have.


Educate yourself first.

The Muslim who posted last said that they need to educate their uneducated. That is no different than what I posted. Should he/she educate himself/herself as well?

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Ok lets try the names of numerous "Christian" terrorists groups.
Sons of Freedom
National Liberation Front of Tripura
Nationalist Socialist Council of Nagaland
Russian National Unity
Lord's Resistance Army
Klu Klux KlanIrish Republican Army And that doesn't even count people like the ones who bomb abortion clinics. And those are just Christians. There are other groups who have different religous make up, and those for who religion isn't important. Saying that most terrorist as Muslim is fear mongering and bigoted.

Read my statement again. I said, "most terrorists attacking Americans are Muslim". How many of these obscure groups you cited are attacking America? Maybe the KKK but the FBI virtually destroyed them in the 70's and 80's to where they are now a non factor.

Oh let's not forget the liberal wack job groups such as Earth Liberation Front, Earth First, etc. Their religion is "Mother Earth".

Terrorism in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mother Earth is wrong, period.

My objection to the building of the Mosque so close to the site of the 9/11 attack is that it is too in your face. Build it somewhere else.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

The Muslim who posted last said that they need to educate their uneducated. That is no different than what I posted. Should he/she educate himself/herself as well?

One assumes she already has. You however are a reactionary idiot.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Read my statement again. I said, "most terrorists attacking Americans are Muslim". How many of these obscure groups you cited are attacking America? Maybe the KKK but the FBI virtually destroyed them in the 70's and 80's to where they are now a non factor.

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

It shouldn't matter if it's 279 or 1.

remember this?

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Why not? That is what the mantra is from supporters and that is the justification used.

Your response?


So exactly how many people does it take to incite terror?

How many neo nazi anti Jewish gunmen did it take to shoot up the the Jewish Holocaust museum down the street from me last year?

One.

How many people did it take to make an attempt to bomb the Pentagon

One.


An how many did it take to bomb Oklahoma?

Two

You want to incite terror? All you need is one good incident.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

While it would be ideal in some ways, I also object to the idea that it's their job to teach the ignorant if they don't feel like it.

I have the opportunity to speak openly with American Muslims, because I have personal, intimate friendships with adherents to Islam. I don't know how many GCers have that same avenue to increase their knowledge.

I recognize the risk of holding people up as the voice of [fill in the blank], but nothing compares to the privilege of open dialogue. Rather than talk around an issue that doesn't affect me directly, I'm always very interested in the opinions of people who have even more of an understanding than I do.

ETA: I'm completely spoiled by Theta Nu Xi, where I can straight up go to a soror and ask a question that might not be socially acceptable. There's no better way to learn!

Originally Posted by MasTNX

I personally dislike labels (Creator of her own definition), but here goes....

Moderate Muslims feel that they, like Jews, should feel some solidarity with their Muslim brethren. In that respect, the plight of Muslims in Palestine or other places is of importance. However, like most Americans we are in love with the idea of self-determinism and that we can carve out a great life for ourselves here in America where we can live and worship as we please. Some other nations like Saudi Arabia may have a more "Islamic" daily life, but few American Muslims would trade their life here for a strict, oppressive life over there even if they believed that living by Shariah Law is best.

There is a common refrain that the suicide bomber is the only weapon that poor Palestinians have against a heavily armed Israel, but the moderate Muslim believes that ONLY in theory. No one they know would ever do such a thing and they would never want to live in a place where people did such things. Most Moderate Muslims believe that the real solution in Palestine is a political and economic one, that will not be won with weapons. The issues in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq are about bad people using religion to gain power and convince younger, poorer, dumber people to kill others in market places and mosques. Meanwhile this does not excuse the United States from being an occupying force in these countries.

The answer to terrorism is a better brand of Islam. You have people who can't read or write being taught that the religion says things that it does not. If they were properly educated in the religion and given economic opportunities, we would probably see a decrease in the amount of people thinking that the only thing they have to do in this life is to please God and that killing others pleases God.

Lastly, I question the religiousity of the 9/11 attackers anyway. What Muslim gets drunk and goes to a strip club before performing a "holy" act? None.

Leave it to a THETA WOMAN! Love you, soror!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I have the opportunity to speak openly with American Muslims, because I have personal, intimate friendships with adherents to Islam. I don't know how many GCers have that same avenue to increase their knowledge.

I recognize the risk of holding people up as the voice of [fill in the blank], but nothing compares to the privilege of open dialogue. Rather than talk around an issue that doesn't affect me directly, I'm always very interested in the opinions of people who have even more of an understanding than I do.

ETA: I'm completely spoiled by Theta Nu Xi, where I can straight up go to a soror and ask a question that might not be socially acceptable. There's no better way to learn!

Oh I agree, I always want to hear from other people, I just don't like putting the responsibility on the minority to educate someone's ignorance. It's a lot different if you go ask a friend, or a sister!, a question.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by MasTNX;

You have people who can't read or write being taught that the religion says things that it does not. If they were properly educated in the religion and given economic opportunities, we would probably see a decrease in the amount of people thinking that the only thing they have to do in this life is to please God and that killing others pleases God.

Lastly, I question the religiousity of the 9/11 attackers anyway. What Muslim gets drunk and goes to a strip club before performing a "holy" act? None.

and the same can be said about Christians. There are so many that take scripture at face value or worse yet make the worst inane conclusions about a scripture and go quioxic on everyone with a band of followers coming right behind. As my grandmother said it's nothing worse than an ignorant Christian than a miseducated one. It took me a little while to get it but after dealing with certain people in life, I got it.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I have the opportunity to speak openly with American Muslims, because I have personal, intimate friendships with adherents to Islam. I don't know how many GCers have that same avenue to increase their knowledge.

My business partner is a Sunni Muslim born in Pakistan. Had I come out and said "some of my best friends are Muslim" everyone would have called BS on me. Glad you said it first.

He and I disagee greatly on politics (he is a liberal and I am conservative) but we have a blast arguing. We almost missed a flight to Ecuador because we were caught up in political discourse.

I asked him about the Mosque and he does not agree with building it near the site of the attack. His thought process is similar to mine as he considers it too open a wound and too close to ground zero. His statement is that it "doesn't serve any real good at this time".

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

As my grandmother said it's nothing worse than an ignorant Christian than a miseducated one.

Very smart woman!

[DrPhil]

DaemonSeid, yep and I say that about religion period. Anything that humans are involved in can and will be corrupted. I should bump that frodobaggins salvation thread.

I have been blessed to have some Christian friends and acquaintances who I can chop up...I mean...discuss religion with. One buddy said he agreed with much of my assessment of religion except with my belief that the Bible is an illustration and lesson that some interpret differently, but it is not to be taken literally. He said that the Word of God is to be taken 100% as the Word and taken literally because these were divinely inspired men (just men? LOL). And I said "NO NO NO...you don't love me and I know now."

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

My business partner is a Sunni Muslim born in Pakistan. Had I come out and said "some of my best friends are Muslim" everyone would have called BS on me. Glad you said it first.

He and I disagee greatly on politics (he is a liberal and I am conservative) but we have a blast arguing. We almost missed a flight to Ecuador because we were caught up in political discourse.

I asked him about the Mosque and he does not agree with building it near the site of the attack. His thought process is similar to mine as he considers it too open a wound and too close to ground zero. His statement is that it "doesn't serve any real good at this time".

When people call "BS" on that line it's because having a friend doesn't mean you can't still be racist/sexist/ignorant/etc.

[PiKA2001]

Who the hell cares? Is there some sort of beat a dead horse week going on here?

If NYC doesn't have a problem with it, it should go up. AFAIK it's not even really at ground zero, but a few block away from it. I understand why some may think it's in poor taste to put it there, but it is what it is.

I wish they didn't have to tear down that 160 year old building though.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Who the hell cares? Is there some sort of beat a dead horse week going on here?

If NYC doesn't have a problem with it, it should go up. AFAIK it's not even really at ground zero, but a few block away from it. I understand why some may think it's in poor taste to put it there, but it is what it is.

I wish they didn't have to tear down that 160 year old building though.

It's a Burlington Coat Factory. I'm not sure what else you could do there at this point.

Unrelated, but pretty much anywhere but the US would laugh at 160 years being historic. Except maybe the Aussies.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I also agree with Gingrich that perhaps an interfaith facility could be built at Ground Zero that contains a mosque, synagogue, and church so that Muslims, Jews, and Christians can show unity in their worship.

I don't think there should be any cooperative place of worship between only three faiths (all of which are so closely related).

I don't think there should be any coordinated effort to tie religion to 9/11 at all, especially since so many people (and I'm sure many people that died in the attacks) aren't religious at all.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I didn't know there was an "official" Islamic Religion. I guess that means that there must also be "official" Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist religions.

Who are these "official" Muslims and how do we get them to stop the terrorists who commit heinous crimes in their religions name? These terrorists were coerced by their leaders to kill infidels and specifically Americans in the name of Islam. There are too many "Harvey Milktoasts" out there that want to just get along instead of calling BS on "official" Islam.

We had 8 terrorists arrested in NC who were plotting attacks. This happened in Johnston County, NC about a half an hour from where I live. Nobody from "official" Islam has condemned these terrorists. They defend them instead.

Maybe they should take the money needed to build a 13 story Mosque/building and plaster adds all over National TV condemning all terrorists and encouraging other Muslims to turn them in before they can wreak more havoc on innocent people. Maybe a large portion of the funds needed to build the Mosque could be used to educate their own followers about "true" Islamic beliefs. Whatever they may be.

It may be true that most Muslims are not terrorists but it is true that most terrorists attacking Americans are Muslims.

This post reminds me of CG2's rants about the Manson Family.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Bull Shit. Most are planned by or carried out in the name of Islam.

Wrong. If I have time when I leave work I'll pull up my database (not really MINE, but I worked on it).

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

USS Cole
Empire State Building Shooter
LA Airport bomber
Embassy Bombings
World Trade Center 1
9/11
El Al gunman in LA
UNC attack by auto
Multiple airlines attack
San Francisco attack by car
Illinois Shopping Mall attack
Shoe bomber
Fort Hood
NYC bombers
NC 8
Detroit plane bombing attempt
Chicago terrorists

Not to mention the numerous attacks in Europe, Russia and around the world.

You forgot Khobar Towers

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

If NYC doesn't have a problem with it, it should go up. AFAIK it's not even really at ground zero, but a few block away from it. I understand why some may think it's in poor taste to put it there, but it is what it is.

I tend to agree. I don't really think this should be an issue at all, and JCCs, YMCA's, and this type of community centers (even tied to faith) tend to do a lot of good in communities.