A Tough Fall Ahead

[Firehouse]

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure what you mena by "the minimum number that the college requires." I know that the HBGLO chapters and the multi-culturals can have very low numbers, but I'm not aware that a university requires an IFC chapter to have a set number. Panhellenic sororities with low numbers usually just go out of business.

No. Regarding the failed colony at Howard, I'll offer my opinion but I am speaking only for myself. I was angry that we installed a colony at Howard and I predicted what would and did happen. My national fraternity was disrespectful of a campus cuture, and that you must not do if you want to prosper.

I live in Tallahassee. FAMU and FSU are less than one mile apart. I am very familiar with the Black campus culture, with the unique strengths and drawbacks of Black fraternities and sororities, and with the - lets call it the point of view - of a smaller HBCU living in the shadow of a very large state university.

What my fraternity tried to do was to create a culturally white fraternity with black men on a campus where that very act was considered to be an intrusion of the most disrespectful kind. The appeal that was made to the Pike candidates was pretty straightforward and had to do with encouraging achievement and especially with a fraternity experience that involved no hazing. I was told that our colony attracted many student body leaders. I understand that after the colony failed, those men were initiated into Pike at a nearby chapter (GWU?).

Here's what I believe:
1. You must respect the campus culture if you want to prosper. We were disrespectful of the established culture at Howard and were not wanted there.

2. I do not want a chapter of Pike that is culturally Black. I don't want to see men wearing my letters whacking each other with canes, branding each other, wearing dog collars and doing a number of other things in public. I appreciate and i respect the demonstrated strengths of Black fraternities, but I don't want a chapter with the downside.

3. No matter how outstanding the men were that started the Pike chapter, if they wanted to fit into the Howard campus culture they eventually would have become just another fraternity like all the others there. And, they probably would not have been successful because Pike is not a traditionally acepted HBGLO.

4. At one time, and not so long ago, Jewish men were not permitted to join 'Christian' fraternities and so they became ZBT or TEP or AEPi or some other Jewish fraternity member. But today, that discrimination is rare and Jewish men feel free to join whatever fraternity appeals to them. I think we're slowly moving that way where Black men are concerned as well. Black men now join culturally white fraternities in surprising large numbers because that's where they feel comfortable and that's where they feel they have the most friends. Other black men feel more comfortable in an HBGLO. Black fraternities are NOT simply smaller versions of white fraternities. There are - some would say profound - cultural differences, both as undergrads and as alumni.


So...that's what happened to us at Howard in my opinion. I was appalled when we went there, and I was embarrased when we failed. I knew it would happen, and I was especially saddened that some fine men were misled by adults who should have known better.

[Firehouse]

"Yes, the spin may not work, especially if you guys don't embrace it & believe in it- but find a way to put a positive spin on the situation and showcase what you have to offer. In this case, not having a house can be a huge perk to some people. Just a thought... :"

You may be right. That's what they may have to do. If everyone else has a house, it's awfully hard to be the odd man out. But, you've stated it well. They have to put a positive spin on the situation.

[dreamseeker]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

My goodness. I certainly did not expect women to post in response to a Pike discussion

oh shit. let me get off GC and get back in the kitchen where i belong before i get in trouble.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker

oh shit. let me get off GC and get back in the kitchen where i belong before i get in trouble.

You need to stop letting your emotions do the typing.

This will be a tough fall for this chapter but I hope it doesn't result in a tough fall.

[Firehouse]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker

oh shit. let me get off GC and get back in the kitchen where i belong before i get in trouble.

Ha! Didn't mean to stir up trouble. I really do enjoy the exchange. I just didn't expect to see anyone other than Pikes on a Pike thread. How do people find out that something has been posted on an individual fraternity discussion site?

And, no other Pikes have seen fit to post so I appreciate and am thoroughly enjoying your company.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Ha! Didn't mean to stir up trouble.

You stirred up sarcasm. Don't get all emotional on us.

Originally Posted by Firehouse

How do people find out that something has been posted on an individual fraternity discussion site?

You've been lurking and semi-posting for 8 years and do not know that? We don't always post in other GLOs' threads but your comment was just that interesting.

[Firehouse]

Well...yes.
I still couldn't figure it out so I went back and looked at the front page and saw the little lighted flag. I guess that indicates that there is a recent post.

I was a political science and advertising major. We tend to be really good looking but not real bright.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure what you mena by "the minimum number that the college requires." I know that the HBGLO chapters and the multi-culturals can have very low numbers, but I'm not aware that a university requires an IFC chapter to have a set number. Panhellenic sororities with low numbers usually just go out of business.

No. Regarding the failed colony at Howard, I'll offer my opinion but I am speaking only for myself. I was angry that we installed a colony at Howard and I predicted what would and did happen. My national fraternity was disrespectful of a campus cuture, and that you must not do if you want to prosper.

I live in Tallahassee. FAMU and FSU are less than one mile apart. I am very familiar with the Black campus culture, with the unique strengths and drawbacks of Black fraternities and sororities, and with the - lets call it the point of view - of a smaller HBCU living in the shadow of a very large state university.

What my fraternity tried to do was to create a culturally white fraternity with black men on a campus where that very act was considered to be an intrusion of the most disrespectful kind. The appeal that was made to the Pike candidates was pretty straightforward and had to do with encouraging achievement and especially with a fraternity experience that involved no hazing. I was told that our colony attracted many student body leaders. I understand that after the colony failed, those men were initiated into Pike at a nearby chapter (GWU?).

Here's what I believe:
1. You must respect the campus culture if you want to prosper. We were disrespectful of the established culture at Howard and were not wanted there.

2. I do not want a chapter of Pike that is culturally Black. I don't want to see men wearing my letters whacking each other with canes, branding each other, wearing dog collars and doing a number of other things in public. I appreciate and i respect the demonstrated strengths of Black fraternities, but I don't want a chapter with the downside.

3. No matter how outstanding the men were that started the Pike chapter, if they wanted to fit into the Howard campus culture they eventually would have become just another fraternity like all the others there. And, they probably would not have been successful because Pike is not a traditionally acepted HBGLO.

4. At one time, and not so long ago, Jewish men were not permitted to join 'Christian' fraternities and so they became ZBT or TEP or AEPi or some other Jewish fraternity member. But today, that discrimination is rare and Jewish men feel free to join whatever fraternity appeals to them. I think we're slowly moving that way where Black men are concerned as well. Black men now join culturally white fraternities in surprising large numbers because that's where they feel comfortable and that's where they feel they have the most friends. Other black men feel more comfortable in an HBGLO. Black fraternities are NOT simply smaller versions of white fraternities. There are - some would say profound - cultural differences, both as undergrads and as alumni.


So...that's what happened to us at Howard in my opinion. I was appalled when we went there, and I was embarrased when we failed. I knew it would happen, and I was especially saddened that some fine men were misled by adults who should have known better.

Thank you, Senusret I, for ushering in another PiKA at Howard discussion.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure what you mena by "the minimum number that the college requires." I know that the HBGLO chapters and the multi-culturals can have very low numbers, but I'm not aware that a university requires an IFC chapter to have a set number. Panhellenic sororities with low numbers usually just go out of business.

No. Regarding the failed colony at Howard, I'll offer my opinion but I am speaking only for myself. I was angry that we installed a colony at Howard and I predicted what would and did happen. My national fraternity was disrespectful of a campus cuture, and that you must not do if you want to prosper.

I live in Tallahassee. FAMU and FSU are less than one mile apart. I am very familiar with the Black campus culture, with the unique strengths and drawbacks of Black fraternities and sororities, and with the - lets call it the point of view - of a smaller HBCU living in the shadow of a very large state university.

What my fraternity tried to do was to create a culturally white fraternity with black men on a campus where that very act was considered to be an intrusion of the most disrespectful kind. The appeal that was made to the Pike candidates was pretty straightforward and had to do with encouraging achievement and especially with a fraternity experience that involved no hazing. I was told that our colony attracted many student body leaders. I understand that after the colony failed, those men were initiated into Pike at a nearby chapter (GWU?).

Here's what I believe:
1. You must respect the campus culture if you want to prosper. We were disrespectful of the established culture at Howard and were not wanted there.

2. I do not want a chapter of Pike that is culturally Black. I don't want to see men wearing my letters whacking each other with canes, branding each other, wearing dog collars and doing a number of other things in public. I appreciate and i respect the demonstrated strengths of Black fraternities, but I don't want a chapter with the downside.

3. No matter how outstanding the men were that started the Pike chapter, if they wanted to fit into the Howard campus culture they eventually would have become just another fraternity like all the others there. And, they probably would not have been successful because Pike is not a traditionally acepted HBGLO.

4. At one time, and not so long ago, Jewish men were not permitted to join 'Christian' fraternities and so they became ZBT or TEP or AEPi or some other Jewish fraternity member. But today, that discrimination is rare and Jewish men feel free to join whatever fraternity appeals to them. I think we're slowly moving that way where Black men are concerned as well. Black men now join culturally white fraternities in surprising large numbers because that's where they feel comfortable and that's where they feel they have the most friends. Other black men feel more comfortable in an HBGLO. Black fraternities are NOT simply smaller versions of white fraternities. There are - some would say profound - cultural differences, both as undergrads and as alumni.


So...that's what happened to us at Howard in my opinion. I was appalled when we went there, and I was embarrased when we failed. I knew it would happen, and I was especially saddened that some fine men were misled by adults who should have known better.

First of all, yikes.

Second of all, I am pretty sure most colleges and universities have a minimum number of students required before they will recognize a campus organization. That number for general organizations tends to be between 10-15.

Sometimes, in the Greek world, that number is either lower for GLOs or or is waived in the case of culturally-based GLOs.

In the case of Pike at Howard, the minimum number that your fraternity requires is WAY TOO HIGH. There is no all-male fraternity at Howard with numbers like that. From what I recall, Howard only requires ten people to recognize an organization.

That's all I was saying. Didn't expect you to respond to anything else but the numbers.

[Firehouse]

"That's all I was saying. Didn't expect you to respond to anything else but the numbers."

OK.
Our national fraternity has an average chapter size of 68; that's the highest of all NIC fraternities. That's our choice and I support it. Other fraternities also make a point of encouraging all their chapters to try to be the largest on campus, or one of the largest. In the IFC culture, it's very difficult to maintain continuity and strength with fewer than 25 members. There are IFC chapters at Ole Miss, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, FSU and Auburn with 200+ members. There are also major schools where the strongest IFC chapters have far fewer. At the University of Virginia, for example, I don't know of any prestige fraternity chapter that has more than 50 members. It's a matter of the campus fraternity culture.

As you said (or, somebody said here today) the HBGLOs and the multi-culturals often have very small numbers. You know that their intake process is very different, as is the culture. They generally don't have big houses to maintain, and their competition doesn't have the numbers to overwhelm them. And it should never be discounted that the HBGLOs especially, see their identity and their role very differently than do members of the IFC chapters.

I wasn't really aware of this: ("...most colleges and universities have a minimum number of students required before they will recognize a campus organization. That number for general organizations tends to be between 10-15."). It makes sense.

[thetygerlily]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Our national fraternity has an average chapter size of 68; that's the highest of all NIC fraternities. That's our choice and I support it. Other fraternities also make a point of encouraging all their chapters to try to be the largest on campus, or one of the largest. In the IFC culture, it's very difficult to maintain continuity and strength with fewer than 25 members.

Great. But that's your opinion and it does not address the OP's concerns. Linfield is not going to magically have 50+ members in each org. That works for larger schools and SOME small ones. They have an avg of 30. Let's help him figure out how to get from 17 to 30 before we tackle completely changing campus culture to get up to your preferred amount.