times are changing and i need some help

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, it depends how far "colors" day goes. If your colors are pink and blue and you wear a pink shirt and blue jeans, and it stops there, that's fine.

Having a colors day itself is considered pledging and/or hazing for some organizations and is therefore against the rules. It doesn't matter what that entails.

Originally Posted by 33girl

And as I said, at many schools there's an unofficial day where the whole Greek community wears letters. If it's part of that I don't see a problem with it (as locals usually don't let their letters be worn until initiation).

The Greek community wearing letters, colors, or symbols/pins/badges is not the same thing as "pledges" being asked (read: made) to do so.

(FYI, NPHC orgs generally also don't let our letters/symbols be worn until initiation.)

It all boils down to what is in agreement with school, state, and/or national organization regulation. The OP is in a local so she needs to be concerned with school and state. There is little room for personal opinion. What makes sense or seemingly "stops there, that's fine" doesn't matter. All forms of hazing originally began with personal opinions and "stops there, that's fine."

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Having a colors day itself is considered pledging and/or hazing for some organizations and is therefore against the rules. It doesn't matter what that entails.

The Greek community wearing letters, colors, or symbols/pins/badges is not the same thing as "pledges" being asked (read: made) to do so.

And I would turn the argument on its head and say that if the pledges are not allowed to feel as though they are participating in the official or unofficial activities of the Greek community - i.e. being told "OMG, don't wear colors all at the same time on letter day or we might get busted for hazing" - THAT is hazing in itself. If I would have been told as a pledge that I couldn't wear letters or some show of my affiliation on Fridays - when all the other Greeks are sporting them with pride - I would have been extremely upset.

ETA: answering the phone is slightly annoying, but I would hardly consider it a "menial task" like cleaning the house or washing cars. I'm kind of surprised that there are places that HAVE house phones any more, quite frankly.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And I would turn the argument on its head and say that if the pledges are not allowed to feel as though they are participating in the official or unofficial activities of the Greek community - i.e. being told "OMG, don't wear colors all at the same time on letter day or we might get busted for hazing" - THAT is hazing in itself. If I would have been told as a pledge that I couldn't wear letters or some show of my affiliation on Fridays - when all the other Greeks are sporting them with pride - I would have been extremely upset.

But I think there's a difference between telling someone, "You HAVE to wear our colors/letters on Friday," and "OMG, whatever you do, DON'T wear our colors/letters on Friday or we'll get busted for hazing," and simply mentioning, "Every Friday, everyone in the Greek community wears their colors/letters," and allowing new members to do as they please.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

But I think there's a difference between telling someone, "You HAVE to wear our colors/letters on Friday," and "OMG, whatever you do, DON'T wear our colors/letters on Friday or we'll get busted for hazing," and simply mentioning, "Every Friday, everyone in the Greek community wears their colors/letters," and allowing new members to do as they please.

I know there was a thread on here about a chapter accused of hazing by their national because their NMs didn't want to wear letters before initiation, of their own volition, because that was the school custom. The NMs were basically forced by the national to wear letters - IMO, reverse hazing.

Shit like that makes me crazy. Don't go in as the lone NPC to a longtime locals-only culture and buck it at every turn and think everyone's going to have a come to Jesus moment and see things the way you do.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I know there was a thread on here about a chapter accused of hazing by their national because their NMs didn't want to wear letters before initiation, of their own volition, because that was the school custom. The NMs were basically forced by the national to wear letters - IMO, reverse hazing.

Shit like that makes me crazy. Don't go in as the lone NPC to a longtime locals-only culture and buck it at every turn and think everyone's going to have a come to Jesus moment and see things the way you do.

Was it that one or a similar one where it was pointed out that presenting the option to the NMs to vote, with the pressure of tradition behind it, makes it less of a 'by their own free will thing?' Without even knowing what language was used to present the option, it's hard to say.

If that sort of thing was all the OP's chapter was doing, I sincerely doubt that the school would be on their asses and there would be campus rumors about what was really going on. If you're worried about losing recognition you're doing something really wrong. Especially when your response is to find something you can do that no one else will "see or hear" not "something that isn't hazing."

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

If that sort of thing was all they were doing, I sincerely doubt that the school would be on their asses and there would be campus rumors about what was really going on. If you're worried about losing recognition you're doing something really wrong. Especially when your response is to find something you can do that no one else will "see or hear" not "that isn't hazing."

It wasn't the school that was on their asses, it was their national HQ. The example I gave had nothing to do with the OP's situation - it was a tangent the thread went on.

Oh, and congratulations everyone for chasing the OP off, and making her even more resentful about having to create an anti-hazing pledge program. That will really help the girls joining this group next year.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It wasn't the school that was on their asses, it was their national HQ. The example I gave had nothing to do with the OP's situation - it was a tangent the thread went on.

Oh, and congratulations everyone for chasing the OP off, and making her even more resentful about having to create an anti-hazing pledge program. That will really help the girls joining this group next year.

Actually, my first paragraph referred to your example, my second to the OP.

So it's our fault she left after asking us to help her haze in a way that could not be "seen or heard?" Not my job. Her group shouldn't haze, the new members shouldn't put up with it, and that won't change until her perspective does. She pretty much ignored everyone (from whatever conference) saying that you could pledge without hazing and complained about how they couldn't haze anymore.

Sorry, not buying it, not helping it, not feeling bad because it took its ball and went home.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Oh, and congratulations everyone for chasing the OP off, and making her even more resentful about having to create an anti-hazing pledge program. That will really help the girls joining this group next year.

Imagine a world where GC determines outcomes.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I know there was a thread on here about a chapter accused of hazing by their national because their NMs didn't want to wear letters before initiation, of their own volition, because that was the school custom. The NMs were basically forced by the national to wear letters - IMO, reverse hazing.

That reminds me of a girl in my chapter who we jokingly said would "haze herself." I think it was mainly because she was so clueless about Greek life, and she would do things that we wouldn't ask of her, or she would ask seemingly innocent questions which could be taken the wrong way by others.

Even she laughs about it now. But at the time, we would worry. She could have asked something as simple as, "I can't wear letters until initiation, right?" (even though she could). But even if we said, "No, you definitely can," to an outsider, it might have made it seem as though we wouldn't allow her to do so, and that we were trying to cover something up.

I will admit that at times, it does become tiresome trying to watch every little thing you do... especially when you sometimes have no control over the situation.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And I would turn the argument on its head and say that if the pledges are not allowed to feel as though they are participating in the official or unofficial activities of the Greek community - i.e. being told "OMG, don't wear colors all at the same time on letter day or we might get busted for hazing" - THAT is hazing in itself. If I would have been told as a pledge that I couldn't wear letters or some show of my affiliation on Fridays - when all the other Greeks are sporting them with pride - I would have been extremely upset.

This isn't about personal opinion and what individuals would say. Schools and national headquarters have heard every explanation/excuse/response in the book from actives. This is about regulations. Chapters need to know whether their practices violate rules and regulations.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This isn't about personal opinion and what individuals would say. Schools and national headquarters have heard every explanation/excuse/response in the book from actives. This is about regulations. Chapters need to know whether their practices violate rules and regulations.

This isn't coming from actives. It's coming from pledges/new members/candidates/whatever you want to call them, the very people that "anti-hazing" statutes are supposed to protect.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This isn't coming from actives. It's coming from pledges/new members/candidates/whatever you want to call them, the very people that "anti-hazing" statutes are supposed to protect.

It often doesn't matter what the "pledges" say and whether they claim to like and/or appreciate what they have to do.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It often doesn't matter what the "pledges" say and whether they claim to like and/or appreciate what they have to do.

Exactly my point. The nationals/schools/anti-hazing advocates get on their high horses and say it's to protect the pledges, when often they aren't thinking about them at all. They're thinking about their own good PR.

How many posts have we seen on here from girls who have been through NM education, are now members of their groups and are CLUELESS as to how to operate in their org and about Greek life in general because they didn't learn anything, because "pledging" was nothing but 6 weeks of touchy-feely and presents? What did they pay those huge fees for?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Exactly my point. The nationals/schools/anti-hazing advocates get on their high horses and say it's to protect the pledges, when often they aren't thinking about them at all. They're thinking about their own good PR.

How many posts have we seen on here from girls who have been through NM education, are now members of their groups and are CLUELESS as to how to operate in their org because they didn't learn anything, because "pledging" was nothing but 6 weeks of touchy-feely and presents? What did they pay those huge fees for?

LOL. But, the opinions of "pledges" shouldn't matter. There are "pledges" who for some reason enjoyed being paddled and look forward to doing that to the next group of "pledges." Sure, having to wear colors isn't the same as being paddled but there's a thin line when you are putting "pledging" in the hands of people with a potentially vivid imagination and a gatekeeper mentality. The end result is that we have to realize that these strict regulations that prohibit things that seem meaningful and harmless exist because people don't know how to quit when they're ahead. Imagine being a regional and national entity that has to regulate hundreds of chapters and thousands of members.

[KSUViolet06]

Let's not forget that the OP did SAY that they have been sanctioned for hazing recently. So it's not as if people are steretyping her org as a "local full of hazers."

My personal opinion: the point of NM education is to prepare NMs for active membership. Wearing colors on X day, phone answering, et al. might not be super harmful to the NM, but it does very little to prepare an NM for life as an active.

It is possible to learn a respect for your org without such trivialities.