Nun excommunicated for allowing abortion to save the life of a mother

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But the people who DO believe are running the Church. Even their idiocy around the child sex abuse scandal can be explained through the religious beliefs (although certainly not excused.) So they make the rules.

I'm sure there are more Catholic women who have had abortions and don't say a word about them to their local priest and who continue to attend Mass. They're wrong according to the rules, but not wrong according to their beliefs.

Many of them don't TRULY believe either. How can you believe and molest children? and not once or twice but repeatedly?

My point is that they may think they believe, but they don't really. What's funny is that if you truly believe that God knows you regardless of what you show others, then why don't you think God sees right through you in everything that you do? Your heart, your true intentions whether you ask for forgiveness or not? I'll tell you why... because many don't really believe what they preach; they just need to control the flock. That's how organized religion got started...a need to control the flock.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You're like... 12 steps past where my understanding of ectopic pregnancy ends

This.

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

And this is what I will never understand or agree with. How can you be so concerned with the afterlife and unborn fetuses that you are not concerned with the lives that are already here and will be greatly impacted.

Again, while I don't disagree with where you come down, the Catholic position (as I understand it) would be that salvation, as in eternal life in heaven, is impossible without baptism (or baptism by desire/by "fire"). An aborted fetus is, in that view, deprived of any possibility of salvation unless it survives post abortion long enough to be baptized. That, in the traditional Catholic view, is a major thing with eternal consequences.

Not saying I agree with it, but that is the perspective the Catholic Church is operating out of.

No disrespect to the Catholics, but I am sooo not a fan of the Catholic Church. At the end of the day, we all know that much of their rules serve man, not God. Yeah, I said it!!!!

No disrespect, but here -- let me state my disrespect.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I don't think this has anything to do with Christianity.

It has to do with the perspective on this issue in one strain of Christianity. But otherwise, co-sign.

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

My point is that they may think they believe, but they don't really. What's funny is that if you truly believe that God knows you regardless of what you show others, then why don't you think God sees right through you in everything that you do? Your heart, your true intentions whether you ask for forgiveness or not? I'll tell you why... because many don't really believe what they preach; they just need to control the flock.

Hardly a phenomenon limited to Catholics or Christians.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

It has to do with the perspective on this issue in one strain of Christianity. But otherwise, co-sign.

Yeah, for me, Christianity is about spirituality and not about what humans do under the auspices of the institute of religion.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yeah, for me, Christianity is about spirituality and not about what humans do under the auspices of the institute of religion.

Exactly. I'm there with you on this. For me it's all about Christ consciousness but sadly, many that call themselves "Christians" are not Christ conscious.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Many of them don't TRULY believe either. How can you believe and molest children? and not once or twice but repeatedly?

My point is that they may think they believe, but they don't really. What's funny is that if you truly believe that God knows you regardless of what you show others, then why don't you think God sees right through you in everything that you do? Your heart, your true intentions whether you ask for forgiveness or not? I'll tell you why... because many don't really believe what they preach; they just need to control the flock. That's how organized religion got started...a need to control the flock.

I disagree, most of the Church is made up of people who did not abuse children. Their cover up of it is inexcusable but consistent with their beliefs about confession and forgiveness.

I'm not sure why you assume that the priests, bishops etc, don't think that God sees right through them. Unless you mean lay people?

I also disagree about the reason for organized religion being 'control.' At the very least not all of the people in 'control' see it that way. I think we've gone through a period where religion had a high control over people's lives in the Western world, but that it is a cyclical thing.
I see some point here though in ancient religions as well where religious reasons were provided for basic civic matters including when to plant and harvest, but I don't think anyone really created a religion with that intent.

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I disagree, most of the Church is made up of people who did not abuse children. Their cover up of it is inexcusable but consistent with their beliefs about confession and forgiveness.

And remember too that the 'cover up' was not necessarily on the part of the Catholic Dioceses but rather on the part of civil authorities (Milwaukee PD being one of them).

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Beryana

And remember too that the 'cover up' was not necessarily on the part of the Catholic Dioceses but rather on the part of civil authorities (Milwaukee PD being one of them).

Most of it was on the part of the Church itself internationally. The civil authorities are just as to blame when they were involved.

And I blame the people who knew about it and who claim the moral high ground most.

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Most of it was on the part of the Church itself internationally. The civil authorities are just as to blame when they were involved.

And I blame the people who knew about it and who claim the moral high ground most.

And I'm going to ask you to elaborate on your statement - other than what you have read in the newspapers. Why do you believe this was a 'cover up' by the Vatican?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Beryana

And I'm going to ask you to elaborate on your statement - other than what you have read in the newspapers. Why do you believe this was a 'cover up' by the Vatican?

I didn't say this was a Vatican level cover up. I said the Church, which includes all levels of the hierarchy.

Priests with allegations of child abuse were repeatedly removed from positions. The Church historically has not turned offenders or allegations over to civil authorities (although there have been situations where civil authorities also ignored allegations). Priests who have been through therapy - not all of it provided by licensed therapists - were not monitored effectively and were allowed to be around children. This has been a systemic problem and has not been unique to the United States - see Ireland, England, Germany, South America, etc.

And the attitude that the hierarchy has had to this issue has shown a level of disrespect to the victims, although not indicative of Church policy, off handed remarks about this being all about the media, or comparing criticism to anti-semitism, show an incredibly flippant attitude.

The Church is not full of sex offenders and child molesters, percentages are about the same as among other religious leaders or school teachers. However the Church claims moral authority over a large number of people, and to behave immorally and unethically is hypocritical and destroys people's trust in the institution.


Also, "the newspapers" (and other media) are how we get news. Short of being in the Vatican I'm not sure how you expect people to get this information.