Nun excommunicated for allowing abortion to save the life of a mother

[AOII Angel]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072

Last November, a 27-year-old woman was admitted to St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix. She was 11 weeks pregnant with her fifth child, and she was gravely ill. According to a hospital document, she had "right heart failure," and her doctors told her that if she continued with the pregnancy, her risk of mortality was "close to 100 percent."

The patient, who was too ill to be moved to the operating room much less another hospital, agreed to an abortion. But there was a complication: She was at a Catholic hospital.

"They were in quite a dilemma," says Lisa Sowle Cahill, who teaches Catholic theology at Boston College. "There was no good way out of it. The official church position would mandate that the correct solution would be to let both the mother and the child die. I think in the practical situation that would be a very hard choice to make."

But the hospital felt it could proceed because of an exception — called Directive 47 in the U.S. Catholic Church's ethical guidelines for health care providers — that allows, in some circumstance, procedures that could kill the fetus to save the mother. Sister Margaret McBride, who was an administrator at the hospital as well as its liaison to the diocese, gave her approval.

Documents
Church Q&A On Abortion, Sister Margaret McBride And Excommunication
The woman survived. When Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted heard about the abortion, he declared that McBride was automatically excommunicated — the most serious penalty the church can levy.

"She consented in the murder of an unborn child," says the Rev. John Ehrich, the medical ethics director for the Diocese of Phoenix. "There are some situations where the mother may in fact die along with her child. But — and this is the Catholic perspective — you can't do evil to bring about good. The end does not justify the means."

So I guess it's better to leave four children orphans than to allow an abortion to save the life of this mother? I applaud this nun for making the hard, real life decision to allow this mother and her doctors to make the decisions in her medical care.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072



So I guess it's better to leave four children orphans than to allow an abortion to save the life of this mother? I applaud this nun for making the hard, real life decision to allow this mother and her doctors to make the decisions in her medical care.

This really just pissed me off. All anyone could say was "hopefully" they'd both live. And that's just... GAH.

I yelled at the pope on my facebook the other day though so I'm already in a mood.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This really just pissed me off. All anyone could say was "hopefully" they'd both live. And that's just... GAH.

I yelled at the pope on my facebook the other day though so I'm already in a mood.

I know, me too. I love that the argument is, that the ends don't justify the means. If the baby has no chance to live whether or not the pregnancy is terminated, why damn the mother to death by refusing to allow her to end the pregnancy. Let the mother live to take care of her other children!

[KSUViolet06]

Sad but not surprising.

I would tend to agree with AOII_Angel on this one.

I mean, it's not like the church is going to provide for them if mom does die.

[Drolefille]

According to NPR there is an exception in the Catholic Healthcare code of ethics or something that is what the hospital and this nun based her decision on, so why?

Also, people who molest children get "therapy" and are NEVER ex-communicated even if convicted and this nun gets the harshest theological punishment possible. bullshit.

[Drolefille]

For the sake of playing devil's advocate, the church's position is that it's never ok to kill someone to save another's life. So abortion is always wrong even if it saves the life of the mother.

I can wrap my brain around the concept even though I vastly disagree with the premise.

[knight_shadow]

random tangent/

I wonder if there's every been an instance where someone was able to return to the church after being excommunicated. If, for instance, the bishop took another look at the situation and decided that the punishment was too harsh, could the nun be reinstated (not even sure if that's the right term)?

/tangent

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

random tangent/

I wonder if there's every been an instance where someone was able to return to the church after being excommunicated. If, for instance, the bishop took another look at the situation and decided that the punishment was too harsh, could the nun be reinstated (not even sure if that's the right term)?

/tangent

To be brought back into communion with the church, generally you just have to go to confession and complete your penance. What the penance may be is a different matter.

So you have to agree that you did wrong and repent. Meanwhile you have to continue to fulfill all of your obligations, including attending Mass (otherwise you'll need to confess that too) but you cannot receive communion.

If she's kicked from her order that's another issue altogether and I have no idea if that is reversible.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

random tangent/

I wonder if there's every been an instance where someone was able to return to the church after being excommunicated. If, for instance, the bishop took another look at the situation and decided that the punishment was too harsh, could the nun be reinstated (not even sure if that's the right term)?

/tangent

Canon Law is its own complete and operative legal system. God knows... (maybe literally?)

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

To be brought back into communion with the church, generally you just have to go to confession and complete your penance. What the penance may be is a different matter.

So you have to agree that you did wrong and repent. Meanwhile you have to continue to fulfill all of your obligations, including attending Mass (otherwise you'll need to confess that too) but you cannot receive communion.

If she's kicked from her order that's another issue altogether and I have no idea if that is reversible.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Kevin

Canon Law is its own complete and operative legal system. God knows... (maybe literally?)

iChuckled.

/tangent

[Drolefille]

Oh, and technically you don't have to be declared excommunicated, that's just making it official. It just means being out of communion with the Church and therefore when she made the decision she was 'automatically' excommunicated.

It's just becomes a pronouncement because usually the people who did something "wrong" don't think it was wrong so they "need" to be told.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

To be brought back into communion with the church, generally you just have to go to confession and complete your penance. What the penance may be is a different matter.

So you have to agree that you did wrong and repent. Meanwhile you have to continue to fulfill all of your obligations, including attending Mass (otherwise you'll need to confess that too) but you cannot receive communion.

If she's kicked from her order that's another issue altogether and I have no idea if that is reversible.

I get the feeling that she doesn't think she did the wrong thing which may lie at the heart of the problem.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Oh, and technically you don't have to be declared excommunicated, that's just making it official. It just means being out of communion with the Church and therefore when she made the decision she was 'automatically' excommunicated.

It's just becomes a pronouncement because usually the people who did something "wrong" don't think it was wrong so they "need" to be told.

So basically every time you sin you are excommunicated until you go to confession and do your penance? You just don't have a priest declaring it to the world that you've been excommunicated for having dirty thoughts about your boss!?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I get the feeling that she doesn't think she did the wrong thing which may lie at the heart of the problem.

She might. Even though she made the hard decision, she might really be regretting it and not just because she got 'caught.' After the anger and everything dies down, she might indeed go to confession and make penance and truly mean it.

I really hate that this is where the Church is right now.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

So basically every time you sin you are excommunicated until you go to confession and do your penance? You just don't have a priest declaring it to the world that you've been excommunicated for having dirty thoughts about your boss!?

No it has to be something bad enough to get that label. Otherwise you're just a sinner.

Although technically, you're not supposed to receive communion without receiving confession pretty much immediately before. Used to be people only got communion once a year and same with confession. Now it's more relaxed and there's a point in the Mass where (at least so I was taught) any tiny little sins you've accrued are forgiven.

So excommunication is like the big punishment and is almost always accrued from when you do this big bad thing. There's an announcement generally when it's a public figure/action/big fuss about it. Confessing is a remedy but not just for something big like excommunication, but also for thinking dirty things about your boss (tsk tsk!).

Priests and nuns have to do a bit more, re-promise obedience, submit a statement to the head of their diocese/order etc.