Sprite Step-Off Update: ZTA and AKA to share 1st place

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

To the bolded black point:
It is actually quite realistic for "our*" subcultures to be exposed to the culture at large without the expectation that the members of the culture at large will want to participate. Especially when "our" particular subculture has historically been demonized, disrespected, disregarded, and (attepted to be) discarded by many members of the culture at large. Its not like you see "mainstream" people trying to join in the black church and/or black religious traditions. There are far too many facets of "our" subculture that it would be realistic to expect mainstream folks not to want to participate in. One of the main indicators of their lack of desire to participate is the fact that they do not join D9 orgs en masse. Another is the fact that most often they do not come to the D9 and ask to be taught to step or any other part of D9 tradition and culture. There generally is no expectation that any subculture must contribute to the culture overall in order to survive. It is actually historically the opposite. Thats why your argument makes little sense to me.

What you don't realize is that if anything, there is more inclusiveness between the cultures now more than ever before because the younger generations have been born into a more inclusive society that shares each other's cultures, and thus they become much more acclimated and thus prone to sharing elements of each other's culture, something that can't be said with prior generations (Gen X, Boomers, etc.).

In all fairness, part of the reasons why "mainstream" people aren't joining the NPHC orgs "en masse", is because "we" have strong reservations about voting them in. There's been many on-line discussions on this topic, and I've had my share in in-person discussions on this subject. Granted, this is far from being the only reason, but it is part of the reason. But I've noticed over the past few years there has been a bigger interest in the mainstream on aspects of our culture and their wanting to be involved in it. So I see what you're saying, but a lot of what's been developing has be a slow gradual process over the past 5-10 years, so it could be too subtle for you to notice on a grand scale.

[Rhoyaltempest] wanted to know, quite validly, why people of a specific culture (D9 Greeks and realistically Black people) extend themselves to include others in a culture they seem to have little to no interest in.

Two things: (1). Is that really the case now or has that historically been the case and things are just now taking a noticeable turn? (2). The same could be said for the mainstream extending themselves to us including them in their culture. To imply that this issue is a one-way street sounds really really far-fetched.

We do ourselves a disservice when we think we have a corner on giving everything away to other cultures, and the mainstream is just being fat, selfish, and stingy by not giving anything back.

So yes, I do and have see Rhoyaltempest's point, I just think that her point comes off as somewhat myopic as to whether that is really, truly, and fully the case.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

What you don't realize is that if anything, there is more inclusiveness between the cultures now more than ever before because the younger generations have been born into a more inclusive society that shares each other's cultures, and thus they become much more acclimated and thus prone to sharing elements of each other's culture, something that can't be said with prior generations (Gen X, Boomers, etc.).

This is a common exaggeration. It's like having $5 in the bank, depositing $2, and then running around preaching about how better off you are now because God has given you a lot of $$$$$. "More inclusiveness" is a relative measure that is based on perception of where we've come from. If your point of reference is a society where there are separate drinking fountains or there are damn near zero minorities professors at most universities then, sure, you'll WOW at how inclusive society is now.

This is still an extremely racially segregated society. Americans' routine activities are still conducive to things like low interracial marriage; low interracial violence; and predominantly (insert race and ethnicity) schools, religious institutions, and neighborhoods. All of these are among the proxies in research that measure the level of racial and ethnic integration in societies.

So, all of that extends to how culturally inclusive America is now. I hear 14 year olds talking about how they have friends of various races AT SCHOOL but most of these kids aren't friends when they go home. I also hear these very same kids talk about how they have to "act different" when they around people of different races for a number of reasons. Same shit, different toilet.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is a common exaggeration. It's like having $5 in the bank, depositing $2, and then running around preaching about how better off you are now because God has given you a lot of $$$$$. "More inclusiveness" is a relative measure that is based on perception of where we've come from. If your point of reference is a society where there are separate drinking fountains or there are damn near zero minorities professors at most universities then, sure, you'll WOW at how inclusive society is now.

Good point. Heck I remember when I opened my first savings account as a 12 y/o kid and put $15 in the bank ($30 - $35 adjusted for inflation). As a kid accustomed to having only about $2-$4 (or less) at any given time, I thought I was ballin'. Or as Curly of the Three Stooges once said, "$500? That's almost a million."

This is still an extremely racially segregated society...

I don't know about extremely segregated, but I do know that sometimes, we can be as complicit in having a racially segregated society as the mainstream. Again, it's not a one-way street.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

I don't know about extremely segregated, but I do know that sometimes, we can be as complicit in having a racially segregated society as the mainstream. Again, it's not a one-way street.

Okay, replace "extremely" with "very."

Of course it is a two-way street, however, whites have more power to make all of this happen on a larger scale than minorities do. The things that Blacks try to be exclusive about (as evidenced in this thread) don't mean a damn thing in the larger scheme of things. Segregation is intentional and unintentional, and by choice and by force (i.e. most people don't build their own neighborhoods or choose the zoning for the schools).

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Okay, replace "extremely" with "very."

Of course it is a two-way street, however, whites have more power to make all of this happen on a larger scale than minorities do. The things that Blacks try to be exclusive about (as evidenced in this thread) don't mean a damn thing in the larger scheme of things. Segregation is intentional and unintentional, and by choice and by force (i.e. most people don't build their own neighborhoods or choose the zoning for the schools).

At the end of the day, it won't be a "black vs. white" matter. You see whites in power, but that's not the core issue. I see your points, but I really really think you're fighting the wrong battle(s). Because once the events unfolding comes to a climax, you're going to see a lot of whites in the same boat as we are. That is why you don't see me always siding with "us" on racially charged issues. Because I know that ultimately, it will all be a very moot point.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

You see whites in power, but that's not the core issue. I see your points, but I really really think you're fighting the wrong battle(s). Because once the events unfolding comes to a climax, you're going to see a lot of whites in the same boat as we are. That is why you don't see me always siding with "us" on racially charged issues. Because I know that ultimately, it will all be a very moot point.

I'm not fighting any battle. We're typing.

Are you talking about the "end of days" or are you talking about people foregoing white privilege and group dynamics to align on class lines rather than race lines? The former will happen before the latter.

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I'm not fighting any battle. We're typing.

Are you talking about the "end of days" or are you talking about people foregoing white privilege and group dynamics to align on class lines rather than race lines? The former will happen before the latter.

The former will happen TWICE before the latter.

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

At the end of the day, it won't be a "black vs. white" matter. You see whites in power, but that's not the core issue. I see your points, but I really really think you're fighting the wrong battle(s). Because once the events unfolding comes to a climax, you're going to see a lot of whites in the same boat as we are. That is why you don't see me always siding with "us" on racially charged issues. Because I know that ultimately, it will all be a very moot point.

Whites in power isnt the core issue. White supremecy is the issue. Whites will never be in the same boat as we are. It's well known that if white folx get a cough black folx get Swine Flu and Pnemonia. I highly doubt that the fact that you think blacks and whites will one day be equal is the reason you sometimes side against blacks on racially charged issues. Because realistically if we're all going to be equals some day what harm does it do to side with your own?

I swear I've been hearing this same discussion of Assimilation vs. The Black Radical Tradition all over the net this week. And it has all been because of one step show. #irony

I didn't quote LadyGreek, but I fervently agree with her about desegregation. Intergration was not the best solution and it still isnt.