Sprite Step-Off Update: ZTA and AKA to share 1st place

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Now THIS is interesting (don't forget the audio):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKYrCtE0gFg

Apparently AKA has been spreading the love for some years at the U. of Arkansas.

Okay serious question folks (especially Black folks), why is it that we feel the need to give away/share our traditions??? (and the Lawrence Ross article is typical of Lawrence Ross so no, the article wasn't interesting to me).

Really. When I first heard unity stepshow I thought that the AKA's at the U. of Arkansas were sponsoring a unity stepshow where both NPHC and other greeks participated in together (stepping together) but from the looks of the videos, it's an all NPC and other greeks stepshow, promotiong unity among those groups (even though apparently the winner got to compete in the annual NPHC stepshow).

I'm pretty sure those greeks have their own unifying events like the Greek Sing at some schools. So why do we (as Black folks) feel the need to show others and not only show them, but get them involved in what we do exclusively (or almost exclusively)? Is it that we are still trying to be accepted? are we showing off? are we just kind hearted? I really want to know your thoughts on this.

It's not racist to hold dear your cultural traditions and many other cultures TRULY value theirs and wouldn't even consider involving others in what they hold dear and in what they feel only they can truly understand and appreciate. This is something that I really admire about the Latin community.

I am sooooo serious about this question (although ofcourse I have my own opinions and ideas) and welcome your thoughts.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Okay serious question folks (especially Black folks), why is it that we feel the need to give away/share our traditions??? (and the Lawrence Ross article is typical of Lawrence Ross so no, the article wasn't interesting to me).

I have been pondering this question myself. I've never been one to think this was okay. But I know many people who have the mentality, as someone else mentioned, that it is "cute" to do so. Cute because they think that they are teaching them (white people) something new. Sorry if that is harsh, but that's really what some people have actually said. It's a show-off kind of thing. smh

I agree that it isn't racist to hold those traditions dear. Although I have noticed that some will certainly try to make it seem so.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Okay serious question folks (especially Black folks), why is it that we feel the need to give away/share our traditions???

Wolfman said it best several pages back in this thread:

Originally Posted by Wolfman

On a broader note, this brings up the costs of operating in an "integrated" society. We, as black people, tended only to look at the benefits of access to institutions and services enjoyed by others but not the fact that this also meant that we would be some "assimilation" on our end. You can't have one without the other. The real issue is how this dynamic is navigated.

Simply put, we simply do not live in a society that has a monolithic culture and/or homogenous population. You want to live in an integrated society? Giving away some of our traditions is part of the price that we have to pay for integrating.

It is inherently expected that in any given society, everyone within it is expected to contribute to the society to help define it. It is unrealistic to expose your subculture your immediate society and not expect others to want to participate.

You live in America, a melting pot which consists of a largely diverse conglomerate of other cultures. So it is virtually impossible to totally insulate your culture from other cultures, because you co-exist with them every day. FWIW, America has a tendency to bastardize other cultures in some way or form because of the "melting pot" theory.

Simply put, you want to keep your traditions to yourself? Go find an isolated area of land and create a society that consists of the monolithic culture and homogenous population that you seek, and your traditions will be more or less secured within the confines of your society. But bottom line, you won't find that here.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Simply put, because you do not live in a society that has a monolithic culture and/or homogenous population.

That notwithstanding, it is inherently expected that in any given society, everyone within it is expected to contribute to the society to help define it. It is unrealistic to expose your subculture your immediate society and not expect others to want to participate.

You live in America, a melting pot which consists of a largely diverse conglomerate of other cultures. So it is virtually impossible to totally insulate your culture from other cultures, because you co-exist with them every day. FWIW, America has a tendency to bastardize other cultures in some way or form because of the "melting pot" theory.

Simply put, you want to keep your traditions to yourself? Go find an isolated area of land and create a society that consists of the monolithic culture and homogenous population that you seek, and your traditions will be more or less secured within the confines of your society. But bottom line, you won't find that here.

Missed the point as always. Why do WE teach them and in some cases, seek others out to teach???? That is the question.

Other cultures don't share like we do. Read the entire post again and try answering the question again.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Missed the point as always. Why do WE teach them and in some cases, seek others out to teach???? That is the question.

No I did not miss the point, if anything I think YOU are missing the point. Wolfman made a great point on page 3 of this thread that I edited to include in my response. Check it out.

Other cultures don't share like we do. Read the entire post again and try answering the question again.

Other cultures aren't as assimilated in other cultures' societies either, their populations are more homogenous, their political land boundaries belong exclusively to them, and thus they can afford the option to share or not share their traditions. We don't have that same luxury. Furthermore, we as blacks always have sought to be seen as equal to whites and have access to the same resources whites did, and while a significant amount of that access has been granted, the admission price for such access was assimilation into their culture.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Missed the point as always. Why do WE teach them and in some cases, seek others out to teach???? That is the question.

Other cultures don't share like we do. Read the entire post again and try answering the question again.

I know I'm late and maybe you all have moved on. Forgive me I did read the end and this was the topic but since starting at the beginning it may have changed.

What you are describing is what we Spike Lee calls the Magic Negro syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_negro

The magical negro is typically but not always "in some way outwardly or inwardly disabled, either by discrimination, disability or social constraint," often a janitor or prisoner.[5] He has no past; he simply appears one day to help the white protagonist.[6] He sometimes fits the black stereotype, "prone to criminality and laziness."[7] To counterbalance this, he has some sort of magical power, "rather vaguely defined but not the sort of thing one typically encounters."[6] He is patient and wise, often dispensing various words of wisdom, and is "closer to the earth."[2]
The magical negro serves as a plot device to help the protagonist get out of trouble, typically through helping the white character recognize his own faults and overcome them.[2] Although he has magical powers, his "magic is ostensibly directed toward helping and enlightening a white male character."[5] It is this feature of the magical negro that some people find most troubling. Although from a certain perspective the character may seem to be showing blacks in a positive light, he is still ultimately subordinate to whites. He is also regarded as an exception, allowing white America to "like individual black people but not black culture."[8]

We complain about it when we see it on film, but it is actually based on real life. A lot of times you gotta look into the psyche of why somebody does that. Is it that they feel if they teach this, then we will be more accepted by the mainstream? Who knows. At the end of the day the question has to be asked, will said teaching allow them to like me or like my culture and take an interest in my culture?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

We complain about it when we see it on film, but it is actually based on real life. A lot of times you gotta look into the psyche of why somebody does that. Is it that they feel if they teach this, then we will be more accepted by the mainstream? Who knows. At the end of the day the question has to be asked, will said teaching allow them to like me or like my culture and take an interest in my culture?

Yes, it actually could. If the people of the world closed their culture off to others it would just breed even more misunderstanding and distrust.

[redblackdelta]

First, I did read this entire thread and pledged DST Spring '91 so please don't interrupt, just let Mama get two words in.
I was excited about the step show and MTV coverage because this is the first time since 1992 that D9 organizations were allowed to perform in our letters (please find threads about Stomp the Yard to know a little of our copyright infringement drama). I loved that alumnae chapters scurried to help collegiates score mounting service hours. It was clearly marketed as a D9 event. I even remembered wondering if frats like Sigma Phi Rho and other non D9, predominantly African American orgs would be able to step.
So....
Being around long enough to witness the cultural theft and rendering down of every other African American art form, I knew who'd win the show upon the first pilot. I hoped it wouldn't be so, but some things are formulaic that way.

There was a post about when do other cultures feel flattered. As an American Indian/African American mixedblood, I'll dare speak for all American Indians and say "NEVER". Flatter me by upholding treaty rights, slaying Indian mascots and asking what I am before assuming I speak Spanish. My African ancestors will never be flattered by Taiwanese imported Kente and superficial "Unity" steps or step shows. If NPC orgs want to unify with D9 orgs, pick a corner in South Dallas, South Philly, Harlem, South Central L.A., the or South Side of Chicago (hmm, see a trend) and do the grass root community service we do. Check writing is nice, but a day in a women's shelter goes so much further.

What's to come of all this? Perhaps Sprite and MTV will rethink their profit methods, but judging by The Jersey Shore, that won't happen too soon. I'm sure we can expect UC San Diego's Pi Kappa Alpha dressed up as Bruhs next year, planning on "bringing it". If and when that happens maybe folks will see that a post racial America does not exist.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by redblackdelta

First, I did read this entire thread and pledged DST Spring '91 so please don't interrupt, just let Mama get two words in.

Thanks for chiming in Soror.

For the record, you may be older than your fellow 90's BGLOers in this thread (including myself), but "mama" is reserved for Soror ladygreek who gets the ultimate Seasoned Soror deference.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

I know I'm late and maybe you all have moved on. Forgive me I did read the end and this was the topic but since starting at the beginning it may have changed.

What you are describing is what we Spike Lee calls the Magic Negro syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_negro



We complain about it when we see it on film, but it is actually based on real life. A lot of times you gotta look into the psyche of why somebody does that. Is it that they feel if they teach this, then we will be more accepted by the mainstream? Who knows. At the end of the day the question has to be asked, will said teaching allow them to like me or like my culture and take an interest in my culture?

Thanks. This is what I was thinking about. Should've known that Spike Lee could break it down (as he sees it of course).

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Wolfman said it best several pages back in this thread:



Simply put, we simply do not live in a society that has a monolithic culture and/or homogenous population. You want to live in an integrated society? Giving away some of our traditions is part of the price that we have to pay for integrating.

It is inherently expected that in any given society, everyone within it is expected to contribute to the society to help define it. It is unrealistic to expose your subculture your immediate society and not expect others to want to participate.

You live in America, a melting pot which consists of a largely diverse conglomerate of other cultures. So it is virtually impossible to totally insulate your culture from other cultures, because you co-exist with them every day. FWIW, America has a tendency to bastardize other cultures in some way or form because of the "melting pot" theory.

Simply put, you want to keep your traditions to yourself? Go find an isolated area of land and create a society that consists of the monolithic culture and homogenous population that you seek, and your traditions will be more or less secured within the confines of your society. But bottom line, you won't find that here.

GTFOHWTBS

UT

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

GTFOHWTBS

Translation: Touche!

UT

Please, call me Tommy!

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Wolfman said it best several pages back in this thread:

Simply put, we simply do not live in a society that has a monolithic culture and/or homogenous population. You want to live in an integrated society? Giving away some of our traditions is part of the price that we have to pay for integrating.

It is inherently expected that in any given society, everyone within it is expected to contribute to the society to help define it. It is unrealistic to expose your subculture your immediate society and not expect others to want to participate.

You live in America, a melting pot which consists of a largely diverse conglomerate of other cultures. So it is virtually impossible to totally insulate your culture from other cultures, because you co-exist with them every day. FWIW, America has a tendency to bastardize other cultures in some way or form because of the "melting pot" theory.

Simply put, you want to keep your traditions to yourself? Go find an isolated area of land and create a society that consists of the monolithic culture and homogenous population that you seek, and your traditions will be more or less secured within the confines of your society. But bottom line, you won't find that here.

To the bolded black point:
It is actually quite realistic for "our*" subcultures to be exposed to the culture at large without the expectation that the members of the culture at large will want to participate. Especially when "our" particular subculture has historically been demonized, disrespected, disregarded, and (attepted to be) discarded by many members of the culture at large. Its not like you see "mainstream" people trying to join in the black church and/or black religious traditions. There are far too many facets of "our" subculture that it would be realistic to expect mainstream folks not to want to participate in. One of the main indicators of their lack of desire to participate is the fact that they do not join D9 orgs en masse. Another is the fact that most often they do not come to the D9 and ask to be taught to step or any other part of D9 tradition and culture. There generally is no expectation that any subculture must contribute to the culture overall in order to survive. It is actually historically the opposite. Thats why your argument makes little sense to me.

To the bolded red point:
Im going to have to agree with Rhoyaltempest that you missed her point.
The American "melting pot" image is a farce. We're not culturally inclusive when and where it is most important. Our laws and our governing isnt culturally inclusive enough for us to even hint that we're a melting pot. Rhoyaltempest didnt suggest insulation of traditions or cultures. She wanted to know, quite validly, why people of a specific culture (D9 Greeks and realistically Black people) extend themselves to include others in a culture they seem to have little to no interest in.

Its like recruiting a pro baseball player to play pro soccer with the knowledge that he can never play for your soccer team. Yeah, he could do it, but its not his sport and he expressed absolutely NO interest in doing it. Why would you spend time trying to teach him soccer and make him interested? What value do you get out of it? Especially when him playing soccer (and not for your team) dilutes and misplaces the value of your team's players. By teaching him soccer you've now made your league a free for all that has lost its spirit and purpose. What was once a sport of love and high intangible value is now just another commercialized item up for sale.

*note: As I am not D9 my use of "our" refers to black culture overall (because I've pondered the same question as it pertains to black culture) and to the aspect of D9 orgs as they are a part of black culture.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

To the bolded black point:
It is actually quite realistic for "our*" subcultures to be exposed to the culture at large without the expectation that the members of the culture at large will want to participate. Especially when "our" particular subculture has historically been demonized, disrespected, disregarded, and (attepted to be) discarded by many members of the culture at large. Its not like you see "mainstream" people trying to join in the black church and/or black religious traditions. There are far too many facets of "our" subculture that it would be realistic to expect mainstream folks not to want to participate in. One of the main indicators of their lack of desire to participate is the fact that they do not join D9 orgs en masse. Another is the fact that most often they do not come to the D9 and ask to be taught to step or any other part of D9 tradition and culture. There generally is no expectation that any subculture must contribute to the culture overall in order to survive. It is actually historically the opposite. Thats why your argument makes little sense to me.

To the bolded red point:
Im going to have to agree with Rhoyaltempest that you missed her point.
The American "melting pot" image is a farce. We're not culturally inclusive when and where it is most important. Our laws and our governing isnt culturally inclusive enough for us to even hint that we're a melting pot. Rhoyaltempest didnt suggest insulation of traditions or cultures. She wanted to know, quite validly, why people of a specific culture (D9 Greeks and realistically Black people) extend themselves to include others in a culture they seem to have little to no interest in.

Its like recruiting a pro baseball player to play pro soccer with the knowledge that he can never play for your soccer team. Yeah, he could do it, but its not his sport and he expressed absolutely NO interest in doing it. Why would you spend time trying to teach him soccer and make him interested? What value do you get out of it? Especially when him playing soccer (and not for your team) dilutes and misplaces the value of your team's players. By teaching him soccer you've now made your league a free for all that has lost its spirit and purpose. What was once a sport of love and high intangible value is now just another commercialized item up for sale.

*note: As I am not D9 my use of "our" refers to black culture overall (because I've pondered the same question as it pertains to black culture) and to the aspect of D9 orgs as they are a part of black culture.

Okay, I appreciate everyone's comments (especially the one above since he clearly gets what I'm asking) but only "deepimpact2" has given an answer to the question: "why is it that we (Black folks) feel the need to give away/share our traditions?" meaning why do we seek others out to teach and involve them in what we do almost exclusively?

For example, as an undergrad I attended 2 VERY predominately white colleges in PA. (5-6 hours a part; PA. is a big state) and in both cases, White greeks thought stepping was cool and some even attended the annual NPHC stepshow, but none of them (as far as I know and the Black campus community was small and tight) ever asked to be part of the stepshow or for anyone to teach them any steps. I am going to confidently assume that this is the case at most predominately white colleges where BGLO's exist. Most are fine admiring what we do from a distance. So why then, do we feel the need to introduce them to something that we are supposed to hold dear, especially when they are not greatly interested?

Deepimpact2 says it's because we (as in some of us) are showing off. What do you say?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Okay, I appreciate everyone's comments (especially the one above since he clearly gets what I'm asking) but only "deepimpact2" has given an answer to the question: "why is it that we (Black folks) feel the need to give away/share our traditions?" meaning why do we seek others out to teach and involve them in what we do almost exclusively?

For example, as an undergrad I attended 2 VERY predominately white colleges in PA. (5-6 hours a part; PA. is a big state) and in both cases, White greeks thought stepping was cool and some even attended the annual NPHC stepshow, but none of them (as far as I know and the Black campus community was small and tight) ever asked to be part of the stepshow or for anyone to teach them any steps. I am going to confidently assume that this is the case at most predominately white colleges where BGLO's exist. Most are fine admiring what we do from a distance. So why then, do we feel the need to introduce them to something that we are supposed to hold dear, especially when they are not greatly interested?

Deepimpact2 says it's because we (as in some of us) are showing off. What do you say?

Don't nobody gotta answer your question. I'll answer it in BGLO and stepping terms because that's all I have patience for right now.

From my experiences, I think it's more along the lines of "some of my bestfriends are AKAs, Deltas, etc." That creates a level of comfort that makes some people want to get off the sidelines and participate themselves. That level of comfort is reciprocated and is matched with the need to show off by teaching something. "I'm so damn skilled that I can teach NPCers how to do the damn thang."

Rant/

The bottom line isn't that different than when BGLO sororities are taught BGLO frat steps. You express interest in something with the potential to learn so you go to your friends or acquaintances to see if they will teach you. (it has also worked the other way around with a BGLOer going to a non-BGLO and asking if they are interested in learning) And, as with sororities doing frat steps, it often works in theory but not in practice. I can think of many times when frat members have said "whoa...are they doing our (insert step), who taught them that" or "when are they going to stop doing our isht." It was cute, cool, and funny at first (I have also seen BGLO frats teach NPC sororities steps) but it can go too far. You feel like you have to remind people that it isn't THEIRS and they now need to get their own. But, once you release the steps and essentially give permission to do them, you can't control where it goes. You can't control what they do with the steps (they might perfect it and perform it tighter than you do ), whether they teach them to someone else, whether they deny you taught it to them, or whether they walk around bragging like "we're real tight with XYZ and they approve of everything we're doing."

/Rant