Sprite Step-Off Update: ZTA and AKA to share 1st place

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

To the bolded black point:
It is actually quite realistic for "our*" subcultures to be exposed to the culture at large without the expectation that the members of the culture at large will want to participate. Especially when "our" particular subculture has historically been demonized, disrespected, disregarded, and (attepted to be) discarded by many members of the culture at large. Its not like you see "mainstream" people trying to join in the black church and/or black religious traditions. There are far too many facets of "our" subculture that it would be realistic to expect mainstream folks not to want to participate in. One of the main indicators of their lack of desire to participate is the fact that they do not join D9 orgs en masse. Another is the fact that most often they do not come to the D9 and ask to be taught to step or any other part of D9 tradition and culture. There generally is no expectation that any subculture must contribute to the culture overall in order to survive. It is actually historically the opposite. Thats why your argument makes little sense to me.

To the bolded red point:
Im going to have to agree with Rhoyaltempest that you missed her point.
The American "melting pot" image is a farce. We're not culturally inclusive when and where it is most important. Our laws and our governing isnt culturally inclusive enough for us to even hint that we're a melting pot. Rhoyaltempest didnt suggest insulation of traditions or cultures. She wanted to know, quite validly, why people of a specific culture (D9 Greeks and realistically Black people) extend themselves to include others in a culture they seem to have little to no interest in.

Its like recruiting a pro baseball player to play pro soccer with the knowledge that he can never play for your soccer team. Yeah, he could do it, but its not his sport and he expressed absolutely NO interest in doing it. Why would you spend time trying to teach him soccer and make him interested? What value do you get out of it? Especially when him playing soccer (and not for your team) dilutes and misplaces the value of your team's players. By teaching him soccer you've now made your league a free for all that has lost its spirit and purpose. What was once a sport of love and high intangible value is now just another commercialized item up for sale.

*note: As I am not D9 my use of "our" refers to black culture overall (because I've pondered the same question as it pertains to black culture) and to the aspect of D9 orgs as they are a part of black culture.

Okay, I appreciate everyone's comments (especially the one above since he clearly gets what I'm asking) but only "deepimpact2" has given an answer to the question: "why is it that we (Black folks) feel the need to give away/share our traditions?" meaning why do we seek others out to teach and involve them in what we do almost exclusively?

For example, as an undergrad I attended 2 VERY predominately white colleges in PA. (5-6 hours a part; PA. is a big state) and in both cases, White greeks thought stepping was cool and some even attended the annual NPHC stepshow, but none of them (as far as I know and the Black campus community was small and tight) ever asked to be part of the stepshow or for anyone to teach them any steps. I am going to confidently assume that this is the case at most predominately white colleges where BGLO's exist. Most are fine admiring what we do from a distance. So why then, do we feel the need to introduce them to something that we are supposed to hold dear, especially when they are not greatly interested?

Deepimpact2 says it's because we (as in some of us) are showing off. What do you say?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Okay, I appreciate everyone's comments (especially the one above since he clearly gets what I'm asking) but only "deepimpact2" has given an answer to the question: "why is it that we (Black folks) feel the need to give away/share our traditions?" meaning why do we seek others out to teach and involve them in what we do almost exclusively?

For example, as an undergrad I attended 2 VERY predominately white colleges in PA. (5-6 hours a part; PA. is a big state) and in both cases, White greeks thought stepping was cool and some even attended the annual NPHC stepshow, but none of them (as far as I know and the Black campus community was small and tight) ever asked to be part of the stepshow or for anyone to teach them any steps. I am going to confidently assume that this is the case at most predominately white colleges where BGLO's exist. Most are fine admiring what we do from a distance. So why then, do we feel the need to introduce them to something that we are supposed to hold dear, especially when they are not greatly interested?

Deepimpact2 says it's because we (as in some of us) are showing off. What do you say?

Don't nobody gotta answer your question. I'll answer it in BGLO and stepping terms because that's all I have patience for right now.

From my experiences, I think it's more along the lines of "some of my bestfriends are AKAs, Deltas, etc." That creates a level of comfort that makes some people want to get off the sidelines and participate themselves. That level of comfort is reciprocated and is matched with the need to show off by teaching something. "I'm so damn skilled that I can teach NPCers how to do the damn thang."

Rant/

The bottom line isn't that different than when BGLO sororities are taught BGLO frat steps. You express interest in something with the potential to learn so you go to your friends or acquaintances to see if they will teach you. (it has also worked the other way around with a BGLOer going to a non-BGLO and asking if they are interested in learning) And, as with sororities doing frat steps, it often works in theory but not in practice. I can think of many times when frat members have said "whoa...are they doing our (insert step), who taught them that" or "when are they going to stop doing our isht." It was cute, cool, and funny at first (I have also seen BGLO frats teach NPC sororities steps) but it can go too far. You feel like you have to remind people that it isn't THEIRS and they now need to get their own. But, once you release the steps and essentially give permission to do them, you can't control where it goes. You can't control what they do with the steps (they might perfect it and perform it tighter than you do ), whether they teach them to someone else, whether they deny you taught it to them, or whether they walk around bragging like "we're real tight with XYZ and they approve of everything we're doing."

/Rant

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The bottom line isn't that different than when BGLO sororities are taught BGLO frat steps. You express interest in something with the potential to learn so you go to your friends or acquaintances to see if they will teach you. (it has also worked the other way around with a BGLOer going to a non-BGLO and asking if they are interested in learning) And, as with sororities doing frat steps, it often works in theory but not in practice. I can think of many times when frat members have said "whoa...are they doing our (insert step), who taught them that" or "when are they going to stop doing our isht." It was cute, cool, and funny at first (I have also seen BGLO frats teach NPC sororities steps) but it can go too far. You feel like you have to remind people that it isn't THEIRS and they now need to get their own. But, once you release the steps and essentially give permission to do them, you can't control where it goes. You can't control what they do with the steps (they might perfect it and perform it tighter than you do ), whether they teach them to someone else, whether they deny you taught it to them, or whether they walk around bragging like "we're real tight with XYZ and they approve of everything we're doing."

/Rant

Basically...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNSLTwPobFE

'Nuff said

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Okay, I appreciate everyone's comments (especially the one above since She clearly gets what I'm asking) but only "deepimpact2" has given an answer to the question: "why is it that we (Black folks) feel the need to give away/share our traditions?" meaning why do we seek others out to teach and involve them in what we do almost exclusively?

It was a good question. I sometimes forget that my s/n is gender neutral. lol.

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

What you don't realize is that if anything, there is more inclusiveness between the cultures now more than ever before because the younger generations have been born into a more inclusive society that shares each other's cultures, and thus they become much more acclimated and thus prone to sharing elements of each other's culture, something that can't be said with prior generations (Gen X, Boomers, etc.).

In all fairness, part of the reasons why "mainstream" people aren't joining the NPHC orgs "en masse", is because "we" have strong reservations about voting them in. There's been many on-line discussions on this topic, and I've had my share in in-person discussions on this subject. Granted, this is far from being the only reason, but it is part of the reason. But I've noticed over the past few years there has been a bigger interest in the mainstream on aspects of our culture and their wanting to be involved in it. So I see what you're saying, but a lot of what's been developing has be a slow gradual process over the past 5-10 years, so it could be too subtle for you to notice on a grand scale.



Two things: (1). Is that really the case now or has that historically been the case and things are just now taking a noticeable turn? (2). The same could be said for the mainstream extending themselves to us including them in their culture. To imply that this issue is a one-way street sounds really really far-fetched.

We do ourselves a disservice when we think we have a corner on giving everything away to other cultures, and the mainstream is just being fat, selfish, and stingy by not giving anything back.

So yes, I do and have see Rhoyaltempest's point, I just think that her point comes off as somewhat myopic as to whether that is really, truly, and fully the case.

To the black point:
Im Gen. Y so I see this all the time.

To the bolded:
Are there really that many "mainstreams" at rush for D9 orgs? I didnt know that there where. From all accounts I've ever gotten there arent large numbers of them at any D9 rushes.

To the questions:
1. It is really the case now.
2. I dont think anyone said it was a one way thing. I would wonder why random white people were trying so hard to bring clogging to the D9 if they were. They're not. There is generally no other cultural group so ardously and actively trying to share of itself as Black culture.
To the blue point:
Idk. No one here has expressed that sentiment. But culturally I think we're okay without whatever the mainstream has added. Especially since the cultures that have contributed the most to our own have not been mainstream.

[ladygreek]

I find the turn of this discussion to assimilation and inclusiveness very interesting.

*warning, long rant*

While I did grow up under segregation, it was toward the end when attempts were made to integrate. Notice I did not say desegregate. IMO desegregation is the premise behind separate but equal. While integration plays itself out as together but unequal.

Desegregation would have meant the preservation of one's culture, yet with equal treatment and access to the greater society. We would be a delicious, colorful, healthy salad bowl, not a melting pot.

Integration is just another way to say "if you want what I have, then you must be just like me. But wait that is not entirely possible because your skin color will always be different. So we will just play along and throw you a few bones to keep you at bay."

Personally I always wanted desegregation, because I love being Black and all that entails--good and bad. Others wanted integration. Thus the contention.

In my job, the org (League of Women Voters Minneapolis) bemoans the fact that it can't seem to diversify its membership. But what I have seen is a lot of lip service (which I do think folx are sincere about,) but no real desire to put in the work to truly understand what other races need to be comfortable in the org. Why? Because it would take them out of their own comfort zone. That is where inclusiveness is failing in our society.

So no, I am not one to say WOW look how far we have come, considering the number of years it has taken. Because everyday I feel the frustration of how are we going to get where we really need to be. I do know it won't happen in my lifetime, regardless of the outcome of the last presidential election.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

So no, I am not one to say WOW look how far we have come, considering the number of years it has taken. Because everyday I feel the frustration of how are we going to get where we really need to be. I do know it won't happen in my lifetime, regardless of the outcome of the last presidential election.

The last presidential election outcome and what we expect(ed) to come as a result is [going to be] a sham. For a number of reasons, we all, black, white, or otherwise, are going to be in for a very rude awakening. So essentially, the last presidential election will have little or nothing to do with it.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I find the turn of this discussion to assimilation and inclusiveness very interesting.

*warning, long rant*

While I did grow up under segregation, it was toward the end when attempts were made to integrate. Notice I did not say desegregate. IMO desegregation is the premise behind separate but equal. While integration plays itself out as together but unequal.

Desegregation would have meant the preservation of one's culture, yet with equal treatment and access to the greater society. We would be a delicious, colorful, healthy salad bowl, not a melting pot.

Integration is just another way to say "if you want what I have, then you must be just like me. But wait that is not entirely possible because your skin color will always be different. So we will just play along and throw you a few bones to keep you at bay."

Personally I always wanted desegregation, because I love being Black and all that entails--good and bad. Others wanted integration. Thus the contention.

In my job, the org (League of Women Voters Minneapolis) bemoans the fact that it can't seem to diversify its membership. But what I have seen is a lot of lip service (which I do think folx are sincere about,) but no real desire to put in the work to truly understand what other races need to be comfortable in the org. Why? Because it would take them out of their own comfort zone. That is where inclusiveness is failing in our society.

So no, I am not one to say WOW look how far we have come, considering the number of years it has taken. Because everyday I feel the frustration of how are we going to get where we really need to be. I do know it won't happen in my lifetime, regardless of the outcome of the last presidential election.

Why thank you for your "long" rant. I especially like the way you explained integration vs. desegregation. I am for desegregation also although that time has passed of course and I loved your "colorful salad" vs. melting pot explanation. I'll take a colorful salad any day.

Unfortunately this generation of African Americans (and I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't know who they are and really don't care to know.

In working with high school students and even the undergrads currently, I have discovered (and these are just my observations) that this generation is the "We are the world"/I just want to be like everyone else/I have no respect or regard for those that came before me (even though I'm standing on their shoulders)/ I don't really care to learn my history, that's the past/ it's not that serious (because nothing regarding the preservation of our culture is serious)...generation.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Unfortunately this generation of African Americans (and I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't know who they are and really don't care to know.

In working with high school students and even the undergrads currently, I have discovered (and these are just my observations) that this generation is the "We are the world"/I just want to be like everyone else/I have no respect or regard for those that came before me (even though I'm standing on their shoulders)/ I don't really care to learn my history, that's the past/ it's not that serious (because nothing regarding the preservation of our culture is serious)...generation.

I have seen this as well. Several of my Black students went so far as to say that they thought that celebrating Black History month was stupid because there was no white History month. Mind you they were taking on this argument from their fellow white classmates. so the Black students had begun cosigning on that argument saying that they weren't interested in learning about their history because "that's old stuff."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Unfortunately this generation of African Americans (and I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't know who they are and really don't care to know.

In working with high school students and even the undergrads currently, I have discovered (and these are just my observations) that this generation is the "We are the world"/I just want to be like everyone else/I have no respect or regard for those that came before me (even though I'm standing on their shoulders)/ I don't really care to learn my history, that's the past/ it's not that serious (because nothing regarding the preservation of our culture is serious)...generation.

I believe the ones who don't know and don't care ARE the exceptions (just like crime ridden neighborhoods tend to be overrun by the minority of the residents or visitors who are criminal).

These exceptions are clueless and blindly "we are the world-ish" because parents and school officials have FAILED them. This is why a strong family unit where kids are challenged to build knowledge and understanding is important, even if kids refuse to read those Black History books parents insist on buying. The way info is disseminated and received changes with each generation so adults need to get with the program.

Every generation calls the generations after it "the lost ones." It's just like how BGLOers who get a few years under their belt talk about "the confused youngins." That has always made REAL old school folks like ladygreek chuckle.

[Phrozen1ne]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I find the turn of this discussion to assimilation and inclusiveness very interesting.

*warning, long rant*

While I did grow up under segregation, it was toward the end when attempts were made to integrate. Notice I did not say desegregate. IMO desegregation is the premise behind separate but equal. While integration plays itself out as together but unequal.

Desegregation would have meant the preservation of one's culture, yet with equal treatment and access to the greater society. We would be a delicious, colorful, healthy salad bowl, not a melting pot.

Integration is just another way to say "if you want what I have, then you must be just like me. But wait that is not entirely possible because your skin color will always be different. So we will just play along and throw you a few bones to keep you at bay."

Personally I always wanted desegregation, because I love being Black and all that entails--good and bad. Others wanted integration. Thus the contention.

In my job, the org (League of Women Voters Minneapolis) bemoans the fact that it can't seem to diversify its membership. But what I have seen is a lot of lip service (which I do think folx are sincere about,) but no real desire to put in the work to truly understand what other races need to be comfortable in the org. Why? Because it would take them out of their own comfort zone. That is where inclusiveness is failing in our society.

So no, I am not one to say WOW look how far we have come, considering the number of years it has taken. Because everyday I feel the frustration of how are we going to get where we really need to be. I do know it won't happen in my lifetime, regardless of the outcome of the last presidential election.

I'd like a delicious, colorful, healthy salad bowl.

[Prettyface08]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I find the turn of this discussion to assimilation and inclusiveness very interesting.

*warning, long rant*

While I did grow up under segregation, it was toward the end when attempts were made to integrate. Notice I did not say desegregate. IMO desegregation is the premise behind separate but equal. While integration plays itself out as together but unequal.

Desegregation would have meant the preservation of one's culture, yet with equal treatment and access to the greater society. We would be a delicious, colorful, healthy salad bowl, not a melting pot.

Integration is just another way to say "if you want what I have, then you must be just like me. But wait that is not entirely possible because your skin color will always be different. So we will just play along and throw you a few bones to keep you at bay."

Personally I always wanted desegregation, because I love being Black and all that entails--good and bad. Others wanted integration. Thus the contention.

In my job, the org (League of Women Voters Minneapolis) bemoans the fact that it can't seem to diversify its membership. But what I have seen is a lot of lip service (which I do think folx are sincere about,) but no real desire to put in the work to truly understand what other races need to be comfortable in the org. Why? Because it would take them out of their own comfort zone. That is where inclusiveness is failing in our society.

So no, I am not one to say WOW look how far we have come, considering the number of years it has taken. Because everyday I feel the frustration of how are we going to get where we really need to be. I do know it won't happen in my lifetime, regardless of the outcome of the last presidential election.

This is a really great post/message!

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Personally I always wanted desegregation, because I love being Black and all that entails--good and bad. Others wanted integration. Thus the contention.

Put another way, for some, being black is WHO they are (their blackness defines their personality and character). For others, being black is WHAT they are (it is a physical characteristic that in some respects they can culturally identify themselves with and can connect with, but their overall personality and character encompasses more than just that). I fall in the latter category. I think both has their place in society, and I don't find either inherently better than the other.

Example of the latter: I knew of a brotha who while in college, always strove to achieve and receive what the upper class whites always have: power and prestige. Instead of pledging an NPHC org, he pledged TKE (a fraternity with a lot of very prestigious alumni, including former president Ronald Reagan). He went to an Ivy League college (don't remember which one), networked heavily with the big dogs, and is now working at Goldman Sachs making a hefty salary. But he is also very involved in the Black community, contributing to the UNCF annually (ironic, isn't it?), tutors inner-city kids in his spare time, and helped organize a black health fair, among other things. But yes, being black in America does not entail a mutually exclusive lifestyle. That's all I'm saying.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Example of the latter: I knew of a brotha who while in college, always strove to achieve and receive what the upper class whites always have: power and prestige. .

That statement is problematic.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

To the questions:
1. It is really the case now.
2. I dont think anyone said it was a one way thing. I would wonder why random white people were trying so hard to bring clogging to the D9 if they were. They're not. There is generally no other cultural group so ardously and actively trying to share of itself as Black culture.
To the blue point:
Idk. No one here has expressed that [it is a one way thing]. But culturally I think we're okay without whatever the mainstream has added. Especially since the cultures that have contributed the most to our own have not been mainstream.

Maybe not explicitly, but definately implicitly. And with it being a two way thing it weakens Rhoyaltempest's argument. And it further confirms my point that we all have a duty to contribute to our society as a whole, not merely our own subculture. Which as my chapter's community service committee chairman, is the platform of my administration, and is so expressed via the service projects I present to the chapter for a vote. My rationale is that we don't get our "feeding" merely from our subculture, but from our society as a collective.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Maybe not explicitly, but definately implicitly. And with it being a two way thing it weakens Rhoyaltempest's argument. And it further confirms my point that we all have a duty to contribute to our society as a whole, not merely our own subculture. Which as my chapter's community service committee chairman, is the platform of my administration, and is so expressed via the service projects I present to the chapter for a vote. My rationale is that we don't get our "feeding" merely from our subculture, but from our society as a collective.

Everyone knows this. No one was talking about only contributing to their own subculture or not being "fed" by the larger American culture. We're all learned adults who didn't get the bulk of our social norms and accomplishments from a shack located in the Black community.

I find it interesting that people often respond like you are when it is a Black people and white people discussion. When other racial and ethnic groupings (such as Native Americans, Asians, and Hispanics) talk about wanting to keep their traditions in house, people often say "that's great because you all have rich culture and traditions! It's great how you're able to contribute so greatly to our society and still maintain traditional ties!!!!!!" That undoubtedly has to do with differences in population sizes and the history of Blacks in America and Black-white racial dynamics.