too broke to bury their dead

[Kevin]

This is nothing special really. Folks all over the place don't have the cash to pay for their relatives' cremations. Detroit's not special in that regard.

The city pretty much collapsed under its own weight, putting all its eggs in one basket, lead by greedy unions, manufacturers who made crappy cars and corrupt politicians.

This'd be a losing formula anywhere and the city is getting what it deserves. Meanwhile, the South, which is largely anti-union is doing just fine. While UAW plants in Michigan keep closing, new ones are taking their place all over the South.

Michigan can either make the decision to get competitive or it continue to be left behind.

[AGDee]

I was going to post something here, talk a little bit about some other stuff going on here right now and then I read Kevin's post and, well.. I just can't even respond to that. Clearly this topic is much too personal to me.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I was going to post something here, talk a little bit about some other stuff going on here right now and then I read Kevin's post and, well.. I just can't even respond to that. Clearly this topic is much too personal to me.

If you remove the word "deserves" and replace it with something along the lines of "the city is feeling the impact of these decisions now", what exactly do you disagree with?

It's not like this just happened to Detroit - it wasn't happenstance or bad luck or whatever. The overwhelming majority of this happened by design, which sucks for the people at the bottom rung, because they are paying for the bad decisions of those at the top, but Detroit (both in the sense of the city, and as representative of American auto manufacturers) made some pretty poor decisions in hindsight. Indeed, disastrous decisions - and I'm not sure this is Monday morning quarterbacking, because the rationale given at the time was specious at best, and wishcasting at worst.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If you remove the word "deserves" and replace it with something along the lines of "the city is feeling the impact of these decisions now", what exactly do you disagree with?

It's not like this just happened to Detroit - it wasn't happenstance or bad luck or whatever. The overwhelming majority of this happened by design, which sucks for the people at the bottom rung, because they are paying for the bad decisions of those at the top, but Detroit (both in the sense of the city, and as representative of American auto manufacturers) made some pretty poor decisions in hindsight. Indeed, disastrous decisions - and I'm not sure this is Monday morning quarterbacking, because the rationale given at the time was specious at best, and wishcasting at worst.

For once can you leave politics and crap out of this? Do you have the ability to look at ANYTHING form just a plain humanistic point of view?

Sonia Sotomayor was right...

[rhoyaltempest]

When I read this post, my human-ness leaped out. How awful it must be to not be able to bury a loved one...no matter what city, town, county, state, or country you live in.

I wasn't thinking about all this other stuff people are bringing up about the current state of Detroit. Wow. Just Wow.

But then, I'm a Humanist.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I was going to post something here, talk a little bit about some other stuff going on here right now and then I read Kevin's post and, well.. I just can't even respond to that. Clearly this topic is much too personal to me.

I agree. Kevin's comment is disgusting. I hope he and his family NEVER have to go through what we are going through. Whether you are still wealthy or have lost a great deal of money because of this, we're all in this together.

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I'm starting to think that the Detroit situation is something that just can't be discussed on a board like this.

On one side you have people who don't have a lot of sympathy/empathy for the situation, either because a) they see people and businesses in their own areas that are struggling, or b) they have issues with the way the automotive business was run prior to the collapse.

Then, you have people from the Detroit area who (understandably) are sensitive and a bit defensive about the situation. They have allegiances to the automotive industry, or to the unions, or to some part of the situation.

I'm not saying either side is right or wrong, but I just think it's impossible to have any sort of reasonable conversation about it in this type of forum.

Not everyone in Detroit has an allegiance to unions. My family went from well-off to "oh shit" and not one person in my immediate family has worked for unions. Actually, my dad got screwed over by the laborer's union. And you know what? We've been affected. That's what sucks most about this. It's not just people who worked in the automotive industry. It's lawyers, doctors, laborers, landlords, strippers (yes strippers), EVERYONE in Detroit has been affected and it really fucking sucks. So understand THIS, to hear someone say that we deserve what we're getting, is disgusting and heart breaking. I didn't deserve to get a bachelor's degree and not be able to get a job. My dad who worked his ass off and has always contributed to society from the moment he stepped off the boat (plane) and was never part of a union, didn't deserve this. The family with 2 children two houses down from me didn't deserve to have their house taken away by the bank.

And the easy answer that I'm sure my response will get? Move to another state. And what does that solve? Nothing. Moving costs money anyways. These people have no money. No jobs. People are becoming homeless. People who aren't your usual lazy bum cannot feed and clothe their families. So YOU tell me what they did to deserve this.

It's people like you guys who make people like me feel worthless. Like it's our fault that Detroit is crashing down around us and there's nothing we can do about it. My heart aches for those people who can't afford to bury their loved one. We buried my uncle in January and I watched my parents, aunts and uncles struggle to find money to do it. It is SO expensive but it's something that must be done.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I agree. Kevin's comment is disgusting. I hope he and his family NEVER have to go through what we are going through. Whether you are still wealthy or have lost a great deal of money because of this, we're all in this together.



Not everyone in Detroit has an allegiance to unions. My family went from well-off to "oh shit" and not one person in my immediate family has worked for unions. Actually, my dad got screwed over by the laborer's union. And you know what? We've been affected. That's what sucks most about this. It's not just people who worked in the automotive industry. It's lawyers, doctors, laborers, landlords, strippers (yes strippers), EVERYONE in Detroit has been affected and it really fucking sucks. So understand THIS, to hear someone say that we deserve what we're getting, is disgusting and heart breaking. I didn't deserve to get a bachelor's degree and not be able to get a job. My dad who worked his ass off and has always contributed to society from the moment he stepped off the boat (plane) and was never part of a union, didn't deserve this. The family with 2 children two houses down from me didn't deserve to have their house taken away by the bank.

And the easy answer that I'm sure my response will get? Move to another state. And what does that solve? Nothing. Moving costs money anyways. These people have no money. No jobs. People are becoming homeless. People who aren't your usual lazy bum cannot feed and clothe their families. So YOU tell me what they did to deserve this.

It's people like you guys who make people like me feel worthless. Like it's our fault that Detroit is crashing down around us and there's nothing we can do about it. My heart aches for those people who can't afford to bury their loved one. We buried my uncle in January and I watched my parents, aunts and uncles struggle to find money to do it. It is SO expensive but it's something that must be done.

I'm so sorry to hear about this. And I second your statement that Kevin's response was disgusting. My thoughts go out to everyone who is facing this kind of thing. And it saddens me that there are people out there who really don't seem to care and who make heartless comments.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

When I read this post, my human-ness leaped out. How awful it must be to not be able to bury a loved one...no matter what city, town, county, state, or country you live in.

I wasn't thinking about all this other stuff people are bringing up about the current state of Detroit. Wow. Just Wow.

But then, I'm a Humanist.

This ^^^


It was the reason why I posted this thread in the first place.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

For once can you leave politics and crap out of this? Do you have the ability to look at ANYTHING form just a plain humanistic point of view?

Sonia Sotomayor was right...

Are you kidding? Nothing I said was political in the slightest - I don't even know how you can construe that as a political post.

Indeed, I did address the "humanistic" part - I really do feel for the people of Detroit, as I noted when I said (paraphrase) that it sucks for the worker bees to pay for the shitty reasoning and greedy short-sightedness of the queen bees running Detroit. And it does suck - PM_Mama's post is a great example of the laws of unintended consequences, and how the disastrous moves of a few can affect the many.

But that doesn't change the fact that Detroit didn't just happen - this isn't the dinosaurs disappearing in a giant fireball with little or no evidence of why. We know why. It's plain as day - and it's not political, it's economic, it's intellectual, it's even humanistic. But pardon me for looking at this pragmatically: Detroit got fucked because the Big Auto manufacturers built a house of cards. Everyone living in Detroit is dealing with the fallout, which sucks, but it doesn't mean Kevin is explicitly wrong, even if you think he's being an asshole. Both can be true, in fact.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If you remove the word "deserves" and replace it with something along the lines of "the city is feeling the impact of these decisions now", what exactly do you disagree with?

It's not like this just happened to Detroit - it wasn't happenstance or bad luck or whatever. The overwhelming majority of this happened by design, which sucks for the people at the bottom rung, because they are paying for the bad decisions of those at the top, but Detroit (both in the sense of the city, and as representative of American auto manufacturers) made some pretty poor decisions in hindsight. Indeed, disastrous decisions - and I'm not sure this is Monday morning quarterbacking, because the rationale given at the time was specious at best, and wishcasting at worst.

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves. I have a compassion for humanity in general and don't think that anybody "deserves" something that they weren't directly responsible for. A serial killer may "deserve" life imprisonment. Someone who works their whole lives at an honest living after working hard to educate themselves doesn't "deserve" financial devastation. I will not argue that Michigan put all it's eggs in one basket but for a very long time, that basket supported millions of people in many states across many industries in this country. The health care system nationwide is on the verge of a crash not dissimilar to the auto industry and people are fighting a proactive tooth and nail. The banking system crashed and it was saved. Money talks, that's the bottom line.

It would be a wonderful world if we could all grow up with silver spoons in our mouths. Kevin doesn't seem to understand that in a capitalistic society, all class levels and job levels have to be present. We can't all be CEOs. We can't all be so wealthy that money will never be a problem. We can get Master's degrees and pour money into a retirement fund, save funds, be responsible and still end up without a job, on the verge of losing your home because you were born and raised, and chose to stay, in a particular geographic area.

Michigan is not alone in putting all of it's eggs in one basket. Many states utilize the resources that they have available. I don't disagree that the UAW was greedy, but, in their greed, they supported hundreds of thousands of other people in other industries: restaurants, theaters, boats, sporting goods, etc. If our society was able to completely eliminate the need for oil, where would Texas be? Why is there such resistance to moving to alternative fuel sources? Because people in that industry fight it.

For many of the people who live and work in the Detroit metro area, it most certainly is happenstance and bad luck. Many are, in fact, victims of circumstances over which they had no control and no warning. People who would happily relocate but can't because they can't sell their houses and if they walk away from their current home, their credit report will be so destroyed that they can't find a new place to live. Kevin tends to be closed minded to the fact that there are not as many jobs as there are people, let alone jobs that allow you to live a comfortable lifestyle. However, we still need people working those jobs. We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves. I have a compassion for humanity in general and don't think that anybody "deserves" something that they weren't directly responsible for. A serial killer may "deserve" life imprisonment. Someone who works their whole lives at an honest living after working hard to educate themselves doesn't "deserve" financial devastation. I will not argue that Michigan put all it's eggs in one basket but for a very long time, that basket supported millions of people in many states across many industries in this country. The health care system nationwide is on the verge of a crash not dissimilar to the auto industry and people are fighting a proactive tooth and nail. The banking system crashed and it was saved. Money talks, that's the bottom line.

It would be a wonderful world if we could all grow up with silver spoons in our mouths. Kevin doesn't seem to understand that in a capitalistic society, all class levels and job levels have to be present. We can't all be CEOs. We can't all be so wealthy that money will never be a problem. We can get Master's degrees and pour money into a retirement fund, save funds, be responsible and still end up without a job, on the verge of losing your home because you were born and raised, and chose to stay, in a particular geographic area.

Michigan is not alone in putting all of it's eggs in one basket. Many states utilize the resources that they have available. I don't disagree that the UAW was greedy, but, in their greed, they supported hundreds of thousands of other people in other industries: restaurants, theaters, boats, sporting goods, etc. If our society was able to completely eliminate the need for oil, where would Texas be? Why is there such resistance to moving to alternative fuel sources? Because people in that industry fight it.

For many of the people who live and work in the Detroit metro area, it most certainly is happenstance and bad luck. Many are, in fact, victims of circumstances over which they had no control and no warning. People who would happily relocate but can't because they can't sell their houses and if they walk away from their current home, their credit report will be so destroyed that they can't find a new place to live. Kevin tends to be closed minded to the fact that there are not as many jobs as there are people, let alone jobs that allow you to live a comfortable lifestyle. However, we still need people working those jobs. We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

stands up and applauds.

One can't understand struggle if one never had to.

This post FTW.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves.

WHAT??!!!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I agree. Kevin's comment is disgusting. I hope he and his family NEVER have to go through what we are going through. Whether you are still wealthy or have lost a great deal of money because of this, we're all in this together.....I's people like you guys who make people like me feel worthless. Like it's our fault that Detroit is crashing down around us and there's nothing we can do about it. My heart aches for those people who can't afford to bury their loved one. We buried my uncle in January and I watched my parents, aunts and uncles struggle to find money to do it. It is SO expensive but it's something that must be done.

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves. I have a compassion for humanity in general and don't think that anybody "deserves" something that they weren't directly responsible for. .......We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

A couple of things on this:

1) PM_Mama - I never said it was just unions. What I was saying is that it's a deeply personal situation for people in Detroit, because of the overwhelming presence of the automotive industry there.

2) To reiterate Belle's point, saying that the government and business leaders of Detroit failed does not equal saying that the people of Detroit deserved this. I feel terrible for the people who are out of work, and for the citizens of Detroit (and around the country) who have become victims of bad political and business decisions.

Finally (to both of you and deepimpact2), on a personal note, I'd caution any of you about making assumptions about the people posting. Not all of us grew up with silver spoons, or even with middle-class backgrounds. I grew up in a household where money was a HUGE problem, where tough choices had to be made every day, where I did not have health insurance as a child, and where I had to work two jobs through high school and during college to help ensure that I could pay for a college education, living expenses, etc. (and so that I could help contribute to the household living expenses to supplement what my parents could scrap together). I know what it's like to live in a household where each day is a struggle.

I am very sorry that you and the other residents of Michigan are going through all of this. But, let's not play the assumptions game here.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

A couple of things on this:



Finally (to both of you and deepimpact2), on a personal note, I'd caution any of you about making assumptions about the people posting. Not all of us grew up with silver spoons, or even with middle-class backgrounds. I grew up in a household where money was a HUGE problem, where tough choices had to be made every day, where I did not have health insurance as a child, and where I had to work two jobs through high school and during college to help ensure that I could pay for a college education, living expenses, etc. (and so that I could help contribute to the household living expenses to supplement what my parents could scrap together). I know what it's like to live in a household where each day is a struggle.

No assumptions need to be made. The posts speak for themselves. I didn't make any assumptions about your life and whether you had a silver spoon. I was commenting on how disgusting the content of the posts was in reference to the topic.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

No assumptions need to be made. The posts speak for themselves. I didn't make any assumptions about your life and whether you had a silver spoon. I was commenting on how disgusting the content of the posts was in reference to the topic.

Let's put aside Kevin's post for a minute.

What's happening in Detroit is awful, and there has to be a lot of hurt being felt by families in the area. To a lesser extent, there's a lot of that going on around the country - people seeing their neighbors and family members losing their homes, losing their jobs, things of that nature. There are a lot of people who have had rough lives over the past couple of years, and who will continue to have rough lives for some time.

Now, the way I read RC's post (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: we have seen the mistakes of the past; now, how can we make sure this doesn't happen again in the future? What can we do to make sure that companies, unions and government don't injure another area the way they've injured the Detroit area?

Personally, I have concern for the people of Detroit (and Michigan)...surprisingly, there are quite a few Michigan residents at my law school, and you can tell that the events of the past couple of years have broken their hearts. However, I also hope that this level of economic spiral doesn't happen to another community. There will be economic cycles where people will lose their jobs, where business will have a downturn..that's guaranteed to happen at some point in the future. I just hope that people are paying attention to some of the mistakes made by the various entities, and that those mistakes don't happen again.

I don't know what's heartless or cold about that line of thinking. I think it just expresses a hope that everyone learns from their mistakes.

ETA: My first comment in the thread still stands, in that I think this is an impossible topic to discuss in a forum like this. That's not a shot at anyone - it's such a personal issue for people in Michigan that, I think, anyone can understand the emotion behind their views.