Senator Kennedy has died

[WCsweet<3]

You know, I have barely been around long enough to truly know everything Senator Kennedy did, however, he was such an inspiration.

This is very difficult for me and I do not entirely understand why.

RIP

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

Some people were upset by MJ dying. This is an entirely different level and everyone should be saddened by this loss.

Actually, there's a pretty solid argument to be made that it's almost exactly the same thing - a complete white-washing of anything negative in the historical record resulting in an overwhelmingly positive public response based solely in part of the man's legacy.

Kennedy did many respectable things in his life, worked hard for his causes and saw much more than his fair share of misfortune. But it's disingenuous to pretend he didn't profit, personally and professionally, from those misfortunes, and use those causes to serve his own ends - and especially in his early years, the man was far less than a saint. Have we forgotten Roger Mudd so easily?

That's what is the most interesting thing to me - Teddy was a deeply flawed man, one who ran the gamut from doing absolutely amazing things (literally the best Senator in history at going across the aisle and forging compromise) to positively dastardly (killing a woman and getting off without so much as a slap on the wrist).

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Have we forgotten Roger Mudd so easily?

I was going to say "I love Roger Mudd!! What did he do??" So I wikied it. I really did live in a Republican household, because I have no recollection of this interview and I'm old enough to remember it. (By that I mean the 'rents weren't even paying attention because they were already on the Reagan train.)

When people say it is hitting them, I think they mean the whole passing of the concept of a family dynasty like the Kennedys - who we have never had anything else like in the US - rather than anything EMK did (or didn't do) in general. My mom was a mess when Jackie died, and I didn't understand it at all. Now I do.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

When people say it is hitting them, I think they mean the whole passing of the concept of a family dynasty like the Kennedys - who we have never had anything else like in the US - rather than anything EMK did (or didn't do) in general. My mom was a mess when Jackie died, and I didn't understand it at all. Now I do.

Yeah, this probably plays a massive part in the whitewashing of the historical record, too - and like I said, I don't blame anybody for doing it (and that's beside the fact that his transgressions largely took part in a different era, especially for the media), and he really was an amazing dude (whether or not you liked him).

An interesting back-and-forth I saw earlier today basically proves this via example - one pundit labeled him the ultimate champion for the underprivileged, while the other basically said Kennedy started the "entitlement complex" that nearly dragged under welfare, the VA and grossly bloated US budgets for decades.

Both are likely true. I can't even think of the last American figure who so starkly displayed both the purest white and darkest black sides of the coin. He's an absolutely fascinating case study.

[BlueCarnation]

I had the fortune of working in the US Senate and working with his staff, many of whom became my good friends. Senator Kennedy, who, like all of us, had his failings, was a wonderful public servant who cared deeply about his family, staff and friends. It was an honor to have met him and I am sad for my friends who are so sad today. We have all benefitted in some way from legislation he helped enact, and we should be thankful for what he's done for us. It's a sad day.

[Gucci Model]

Originally Posted by buck1

Did you know he killed someone?

Hey! What do you know? So did Laura Bush!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Gucci Model

Hey! What do you know? So did Laura Bush!

Don't start with this - first, it's not worth engaging buck1 in this type of debate, he/she is just trying to get a rise out of people. Second, the Bush and Kennedy situations were different in a number of ways.

So, please don't even start with that type of discussion. Thanks.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Don't start with this - first, it's not worth engaging buck1 in this type of debate, he/she is just trying to get a rise out of people. Second, the Bush and Kennedy situations were different in a number of ways.

So, please don't even start with that type of discussion. Thanks.

We need a name for this, like Godwin, because that's already the 3rd time I have read that little back & forth today.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by buck1

I know Kennedy drove off a bridge, fled the scene and left somone to die like a coward. Is that your idea of integrity?

My idea of integrity is judging how someone lived his life by looking at his entire life and the trajectory of that life, not just at one incident, especially when that incident occured before the midway point in the person's life.

My idea of intergrity is also to refrain from hubris in judging the flaws of others; I have enough flaws and failings of my own to occupy my attention.

I'm watching his procession to the JFK Library. It's amazing to see how many people have stopped their cars on the highway and on overpasses just to catch a glimpse of his hearse.

So we have a person who's calling the dead a coward. I think it's pretty safe to say that we who are grateful for his service are far greater in number than those who choose to speak ill of him. Look at buck1's posts. Clearly this troll is here to stir shit up.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by OTW

I'm watching his procession to the JFK Library. It's amazing to see how many people have stopped their cars on the highway and on overpasses just to catch a glimpse of his hearse.

The crazy thing is, it's not so amazing for Boston. It's hard to accurately describe how much that city (and the Commonwealth, for that matter) loves the Kennedy family. It's something you don't fully get unless you've lived in Boston, or in MA. Today is essentially a Commonwealth Day of Mourning.

Originally Posted by KSigkid

The crazy thing is, it's not so amazing for Boston. It's hard to accurately describe how much that city (and the Commonwealth, for that matter) loves the Kennedy family. It's something you don't fully get unless you've lived in Boston, or in MA. Today is essentially a Commonwealth Day of Mourning.

I know it's not completely the same, but when this guy died, my whole state mourned. Tens of thousands of people showed up at the beach for his funeral (seen at the end of the video).

True, I'm not from Boston or from MA, but I definitely know how it feels to collectively mourn for a native son.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by OTW

I know it's not completely the same, but when this guy died, my whole state mourned. Tens of thousands of people showed up at the beach for his funeral (seen at the end of the video).

True, I'm not from Boston or from MA, but I definitely know how it feels to collectively mourn for a native son.

Oh, I wasn't saying that there haven't been analogous situations with other people in other states. I just meant that I wasn't really surprised by the outpouring of affection and the way that some areas of Boston have essentially shut down for the procession. I was more underscoring your point than trying to dispute it.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

The crazy thing is, it's not so amazing for Boston. It's hard to accurately describe how much that city (and the Commonwealth, for that matter) loves the Kennedy family. It's something you don't fully get unless you've lived in Boston, or in MA.

I think people everywhere are quite aware of the feelings towards the Kennedys. The family has had a very deep meaningful history there so the reaction to his death comes as no surprise.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by buck1

He was 36 at the time of the accident. Not exactly a kid was he?

No, but since he lived to be 77, it was before the midway point in his life, which is what I said.

Was Chappaquiddick part of his "entire" life or do you exclude that part of his entire life?

Of course it was part of his entire life. I do not exclude it from my assessment of him -- I said I do not base by assessment of him solely on one incident.

You, however, seem to want to exclude every part of his life of 77 years except Chappaquiddick.