Senator Kennedy has died

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I think so, too.

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

That depends on what the flaws are and who they impact.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That depends on what the flaws are and who they impact.

Very true. For that, and for other reasons, I don't think it always holds true as a phenomenon, but I do wonder if it's part of what we're seeing here.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

This is basically what I was trying to get at before, although I hadn't grasped it in this way - I think this sums it up well. It's a sort of ideal composite story, almost an example of the Monomyth - hero meets unfortunate fate, hero screws up badly, hero gains strength, hero saves others based on what he's learned/endured.

Whether or not any of that is true in the slightest is entirely up for debate, of course - but it's a pretty compelling narrative in and of itself.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

If he appealed at all to me, I could go along with this theoretically, but Ted's issues aren't particularly ones I identify with.

I'm a Kennedy clan hater. I don't claim to have a rational basis for it. The most interesting Kennedy to me is Joseph senior as a study in the bald exercise of power and ambition and the most admirable Joseph Jr.

As we discussed in the Novak thread, I still feel sadness about Ted's suffering and death as a fellow human being, but TK is not going to be the guy who provokes in me a deep study of the complexity of human nature and how it contributes to compelling narrative.

When I made my comment to KSigRC, I wasn't thinking of any retrospectives; just the other comments in this thread and the way the Kennedys are generally treated.

And honestly, I think there are great many young people who didn't know about Chappaquiddick at all, not that it would have been a singularly unforgivable event had he ever fully taken responsibility for what happened. I had been enjoying Henry Rollins and Vanity Fair a lot less for a while now, but I kind of enjoyed this http://www.vanityfair.com/online/pol...es-eulogy.html

It's a little cheap and basic, sure. ETA: "enjoyed" is probably the wrong word for what I felt about reading it. It might be more appropriate to say that it kind of resonated with me.

EATA: Joyce Carol Oates does a great job with the issue MC raises, I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rd-kennedy-usa

[Nanners52674]

I thought that memorial service was just fantastic. It was so nice to see a celebration of an amazing life and hear such honest human stories from people whose public lives often lead one to forget their side as a parent, friend, loved one.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

If he appealed at all to me, I could go along with this theoretically, but Ted's issues aren't particularly ones I identify with.

I'm a Kennedy clan hater. I don't claim to have a rational basis for it. The most interesting Kennedy to me is Joseph senior as a study in the bald exercise of power and ambition and the most admirable Joseph Jr.

As a fellow-Southerner, I get that completely. Many saw the Kennedys as the embodiment of uber-liberalism.

EATA: Joyce Carol Oates does a great job with the issue MC raises, I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rd-kennedy-usa

Thanks for linking that.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

I thought that memorial service was just fantastic. It was so nice to see a celebration of an amazing life and hear such honest human stories from people whose public lives often lead one to forget their side as a parent, friend, loved one.

I completely agree. My mom and I watched the service and at the end I did have tears in my eyes. I'm not going to claim I know really anything about the Kennedy family, except the obvious things that you learn in History class. But watching the eulogies given by Patrick and by President Obama (we changed the channel while Patrick was talking, so we didn't see anything before that) I learned a great deal more than I knew about Sen. Kennedy's life.

What I did not like, nor appreciated was from my friends yesterday after we left our youth group. We assumed that the church had their flag @ half-staff due to Sen. Kennedy and the 1st thing out of my friends' mouths were "....and the Republicans breathed a sigh of relief." Seriously? Yes Kennedy was a liberal, yes he lived a flawed life (seriously, who hasn't?), but he deserves more respect than that.

[lawgal]

Watched the funeral earlier. It was worth watching the whole way through and gave a more christian slant to his life as well, and the way he was able to work through the tragedies and triumphs of his life. Deep sympathy to his entire family, and especially Vicki, his wife, on her loss.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by epchick

I completely agree. My mom and I watched the service and at the end I did have tears in my eyes. I'm not going to claim I know really anything about the Kennedy family, except the obvious things that you learn in History class. But watching the eulogies given by Patrick and by President Obama (we changed the channel while Patrick was talking, so we didn't see anything before that) I learned a great deal more than I knew about Sen. Kennedy's life.

What I did not like, nor appreciated was from my friends yesterday after we left our youth group. We assumed that the church had their flag @ half-staff due to Sen. Kennedy and the 1st thing out of my friends' mouths were "....and the Republicans breathed a sigh of relief." Seriously? Yes Kennedy was a liberal, yes he lived a flawed life (seriously, who hasn't?), but he deserves more respect than that.

It was a very nice service - I'll give the President credit, I thought he gave a nice eulogy. It was also obvious that Mrs. Reggie Kennedy very much appreciated it.

As to what your friends said - that's pretty awful (and, untrue, as he had a lot of respect from members of the Republican party).

[epchick]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

As to what your friends said - that's pretty awful (and, untrue, as he had a lot of respect from members of the Republican party).

Isn't it? I didn't want to get into an argument with them, but I just felt like questioning them on their statement. especially knowing that people like Sen. Orrin Hatch, had immense respect for Kennedy. But they are the type of people who think they know everything, and I really just didn't want the headache of having to listen to them.

[UGAalum94]

Are you sure they meant it in the completely crappy way we're taking it? It was in bad taste to say it no matter what, but I think if you look at things from a purely partisan perspective, it actually shows a great measure of respect for his influence as well.

Their adversaries, as they see it, are weakened by his passing.

I actually find it more insulting to Republicans, if you like Kennedy, than to him.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Are you sure they meant it in the completely crappy way we're taking it? It was in bad taste to say it no matter what, but I think if you look at things from a purely partisan perspective, it actually shows a great measure of respect for his influence as well.

Oh yes, knowing these people they completely meant it the way we are talking it. They were upset that the church would lower the flag for him, and after one of them made that comment, the other 2 laughed. Then they talked about Kennedy and the KGB and made a comment about how we are better off w/o someone like Kennedy (but by that time I was walking away from their conversation).

[AGDee]

I'm watching CNN coverage now. They are very delayed so the reporters are having to talk and talk about their memories of Kennedy. They are just telling stories and rambling to fill time and I'm finding it to be some of the most interesting coverage I've heard. They will be replaying the HBO Documentary tonight at 8 pm on CNN.

The Styx song keeps running through my head. I don't even know if younger people would know it. "Teddy, now don't you run, you know, you're a bootlegger's son and you just what they've done to your brothers"

In many ways, this man did not get away with Chappaquiddick. It haunted him always, it cost him a chance to be President. Although, many believe that, in not becoming President, he was able to live until his life ended naturally. I clearly remember the general consensus being that, had he been elected or even gotten further in the election process, he would have been assassinated.

I think the way this is affecting people has much to do with the three brothers. Remembering the other two funerals and how tragic the other two events truly were. This is about so much more than Teddy himself. So much more. This last brother was left with carrying on the the legacy of his brothers who were assassinated during one of the most tumultuous times in our recent history. Whether you agree with their politics or not, this family, as a whole, has given much for their country. I don't think anybody is watching all of this and not thinking of those other tragedies.

The family, greeting the lawmakers and staffers who are on the Capitol Building steps... very moving. Senator Byrd, Representative John Dingell.. people who have worked with him for decades.

And, while they sing America the Beautiful, my own tears have come to the surface. We have had but a handful of men who have served their country for so long and given so much of themselves to us all. It is right to honor that, even if they've made mistakes in the past.

[KSUViolet06]

I'm not a crier, but listening to the grandkids talk about him made me cry, as did the letter he wrote to the Vatican.