Senator Kennedy has died

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

KSigRC,

Thanks for pointing out that a complete reaction to Ted Kennedy's death might not simply involve hagiography.

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past. People understand about the cheating at Harvard, Chappaquidick (and the lack of reacion afterwards), the William Kennedy Smith trial, etc. In each of the retrospectives I've seen on Kennedy's life (both on TV and in the news), those topics have been addressed.

I think the other side to it is addressed in comments like buck1, and comments I've heard from friends in conversation, on Facebook, etc. The whole of his life wasn't the mistakes, just like the whole of his life wasn't the work he did in the Senate. I think the problem is when people say "Well, Mary Jo died, so nothing he did since then is important."

My feelings? As I said above, although I didn't agree with a lot of his political stances, I think that the work he did for Massachusetts was pretty incredible, and I don't know that anyone can ever fill that void. His work for the Commonwealth, for me, epitomized how an elected official should look out for their state/city/etc. At the same time, I'm (and I think, everyone else in this thread is) fully aware that Kennedy had some dark areas of his life that shouldn't be forgotten.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past.

I think so, too.

Some of the comments from mourners on the news included the "he was not perfect...." and "despite his downsides...." disclaimers.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I think so, too.

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

That depends on what the flaws are and who they impact.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That depends on what the flaws are and who they impact.

Very true. For that, and for other reasons, I don't think it always holds true as a phenomenon, but I do wonder if it's part of what we're seeing here.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

This is basically what I was trying to get at before, although I hadn't grasped it in this way - I think this sums it up well. It's a sort of ideal composite story, almost an example of the Monomyth - hero meets unfortunate fate, hero screws up badly, hero gains strength, hero saves others based on what he's learned/endured.

Whether or not any of that is true in the slightest is entirely up for debate, of course - but it's a pretty compelling narrative in and of itself.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I do as well. I might even take it a step further and say that this may be one of those cases where that's part of the overall appeal. By that I mean, none of us is perfact. We're all flawed. While we certainly respect and admire those who live a completely upright and blameless (as far as we can tell) life, don't we sometimes feel more kinship with those whose flaws are plain to see? It makes redemption seem that much more possible.

If he appealed at all to me, I could go along with this theoretically, but Ted's issues aren't particularly ones I identify with.

I'm a Kennedy clan hater. I don't claim to have a rational basis for it. The most interesting Kennedy to me is Joseph senior as a study in the bald exercise of power and ambition and the most admirable Joseph Jr.

As we discussed in the Novak thread, I still feel sadness about Ted's suffering and death as a fellow human being, but TK is not going to be the guy who provokes in me a deep study of the complexity of human nature and how it contributes to compelling narrative.

When I made my comment to KSigRC, I wasn't thinking of any retrospectives; just the other comments in this thread and the way the Kennedys are generally treated.

And honestly, I think there are great many young people who didn't know about Chappaquiddick at all, not that it would have been a singularly unforgivable event had he ever fully taken responsibility for what happened. I had been enjoying Henry Rollins and Vanity Fair a lot less for a while now, but I kind of enjoyed this http://www.vanityfair.com/online/pol...es-eulogy.html

It's a little cheap and basic, sure. ETA: "enjoyed" is probably the wrong word for what I felt about reading it. It might be more appropriate to say that it kind of resonated with me.

EATA: Joyce Carol Oates does a great job with the issue MC raises, I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rd-kennedy-usa

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

If he appealed at all to me, I could go along with this theoretically, but Ted's issues aren't particularly ones I identify with.

I'm a Kennedy clan hater. I don't claim to have a rational basis for it. The most interesting Kennedy to me is Joseph senior as a study in the bald exercise of power and ambition and the most admirable Joseph Jr.

As a fellow-Southerner, I get that completely. Many saw the Kennedys as the embodiment of uber-liberalism.

EATA: Joyce Carol Oates does a great job with the issue MC raises, I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rd-kennedy-usa

Thanks for linking that.

[lawgal]

Watched the funeral earlier. It was worth watching the whole way through and gave a more christian slant to his life as well, and the way he was able to work through the tragedies and triumphs of his life. Deep sympathy to his entire family, and especially Vicki, his wife, on her loss.