Obama's Rhetoric is the Real Catastrophe

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Also, as Cooramor noted, just because he's "not Bush" doesn't all of a sudden make everything he does positive. At some point a Presidency has to stand on its own, not in comparison to the work of others.

Where is this point? Is it before the first 30 days that a presidency should stand on its own? Not many presidencies stand on their own and not in comparison to others. Obama/Bush. Bush/Clinton. etc. Those that do stand on their own (and even these are debatable) are typically Presidencies that happened during extreme situations. (ex: Lincoln & FDR)


FEAR MONGERING: spreading discreditable, misrepresentative information designed to induce fear and apprehension.

^ This is the definition of fear mongering that I usually use. As per this definition I would not claim that President Obama is a fear mongerer. The information he has spread about the economy is not particularly discreditable nor is it misrepresentative of the situation. The purpose of telling the American people about the economy doesn't seem to be to induce fear. It seems to be to increase the spread of information and to educate the general public. As far as the great depression goes. It is possible. The great depression happened because of a stock market crash and because the American people withdrew from the financial sector. If, today, people started to withdraw all of their money from the banks, the credit system fails, the dollar becomes worthless that would cause great depression # 2. Though it may seem farfetched and scary to many people the fact of the matter is that the dollar only has value because we think/say it does. If enough people are unemployed and have lost trust in the "system" we could see a major failure. Pointing this fact out isn't trying to incite fear. It's trying to keep history from repeating itself. At the current rate I do not believe that the American people will lose faith in or stop trusting the "system", but that does not matter much if these people have no money and no understanding of what is going on. Worst case=Great depression. Best Case=Happiness and free rainbows for all!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

Where is this point? Is it before the first 30 days that a presidency should stand on its own? Not many presidencies stand on their own and not in comparison to others. Obama/Bush. Bush/Clinton. etc. Those that do stand on their own (and even these are debatable) are typically Presidencies that happened during extreme situations. (ex: Lincoln & FDR)

I agree with your point to a certain extent, and I should have clarified my own point a bit better. You're correct in that, in many ways, Presidencies are judged based on comparisons to others; how did this President deal with this situation as opposed to previous Presidents, etc.

My main point is that what you hear from some Obama supporters is "Well, you can't criticize Pres. Obama because Pres. Bush was terrible." I think that's where the comparisons have to stop; we can't give Obama a free pass because of the perceived shortcomings of the Bush presidency.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I agree with your point to a certain extent, and I should have clarified my own point a bit better. You're correct in that, in many ways, Presidencies are judged based on comparisons to others; how did this President deal with this situation as opposed to previous Presidents, etc.

My main point is that what you hear from some Obama supporters is "Well, you can't criticize Pres. Obama because Pres. Bush was terrible." I think that's where the comparisons have to stop; we can't give Obama a free pass because of the perceived shortcomings of the Bush presidency.

Really, no one can criticize President Obama because it hasn't even been a GOOD month yet and to judge now based on a few weeks in office I think is a sad mistake.

To be quite frank, even 'the First 100 days" at this point with what we have to dig ourselves out of is not a good enough of a measuring stick to judge where this is going and we are in quite a different position than what we were in when Bush first took office.

I honestly believe it will take a year before anyone can adequately gauge where Obama's presidency will stand.

And I agree no free passes but being negative just for the sake of being negative is a mistake also.

[AGDee]

Frankly, anybody can criticize Obama any time they want and that's the beauty of free speech. Isn't it great that people can disagree and criticize our leader without fear of being tossed in jail?

I don't expect most Republicans to like or agree with Obama most of the time and it's cool with me if they want to verbally express that it in a mature way.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Really, no one can criticize President Obama because it hasn't even been a GOOD month yet and to judge now based on a few weeks in office I think is a sad mistake.

To be quite frank, even 'the First 100 days" at this point with what we have to dig ourselves out of is not a good enough of a measuring stick to judge where this is going and we are in quite a different position than what we were in when Bush first took office.

I honestly believe it will take a year before anyone can adequately gauge where Obama's presidency will stand.

And I agree no free passes but being negative just for the sake of being negative is a mistake also.

Ok...so, then does it follow that it's too early to say he's doing a good job as well? There are posters who have applauded his early moves (regarding the stimulus, abortion, etc.). If it's too early to criticize, it's probably too early to start patting him on the back as well, correct?

I agree that, to judge his Presidency as a whole, we need to wait. I'll even give you that we can't say whether his measures will be ultimately be successes or failures. But I don't see a problem with preliminary applause or criticism for something like the stimulus bill, or for the public face he's put on the issues through his news conferences.

ETA: Not everyone's being negative just to be negative; people have real problems with the stimulus bill, and his early approach to the economic crisis, for a variety of reasons.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Ok...so, then does it follow that it's too early to say he's doing a good job as well? There are posters who have applauded his early moves (regarding the stimulus, abortion, etc.). If it's too early to criticize, it's probably too early to start patting him on the back as well, correct?

I agree that, to judge his Presidency as a whole, we need to wait. I'll even give you that we can't say whether his measures will be ultimately be successes or failures. But I don't see a problem with preliminary applause or criticism for something like the stimulus bill, or for the public face he's put on the issues through his news conferences.

ETA: Not everyone's being negative just to be negative; people have real problems with the stimulus bill, and his early approach to the economic crisis, for a variety of reasons.

Agreed, whole heartedly...I have applauded SOME of what he has done right now but I won't be the first one to say **think back to the Lexus Christmas commercial** He is the BEST President.......EVER.

This is why I said we have to give it time before we have a handle on the OVERALL job.

Signing a few bills and reversing some of the former admin. bills doesn't mean shyte to the overall job performance.

It's just like a relationship, in the early part, they do everything right and say the words we all want to hear but in the back of our minds we have to be vigilant because sometimes years later those things do not hold up and people change....heh

It's not just the stimulus bill that people have problems with....and well...no need to run down that ball of wax again, suffice to say some people hate Obama just because, and let's just leave it at that.

Kisg...that reminds me, peep this: Historians Rank the Presidents

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

some people hate Obama just because, and let's just leave it at that.

And some people LIKE Obama just because.

Just saying.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And some people LIKE Obama just because.

Just saying.

Right!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Agreed, whole heartedly...I have applauded SOME of what he has done right now but I won't be the first one to say **think back to the Lexus Christmas commercial** He is the BEST President.......EVER.

This is why I said we have to give it time before we have a handle on the OVERALL job.

Signing a few bills and reversing some of the former admin. bills doesn't mean shyte to the overall job performance.

It's just like a relationship, in the early part, they do everything right and say the words we all want to hear but in the back of our minds we have to be vigilant because sometimes years later those things do not hold up and people change....heh

It's not just the stimulus bill that people have problems with....and well...no need to run down that ball of wax again, suffice to say some people hate Obama just because, and let's just leave it at that.

Kisg...that reminds me, peep this: Historians Rank the Presidents

I saw the Yahoo story, pretty interesting. It's on par with what one of my college professors (Robert Dallek) always said, as he consistently mentioned FDR, Truman and Lincoln. I personally think FDR gets way too much credit, and people gloss over some of the serious issues with FDR as a President, but that's a whole other discussion...

I completely agree that it takes a number of years to assess a President's legacy as a whole. Part of this is the time it takes to release the Presidential papers, and part of it is that certain high level decisions don't take full and final affect for a number of years. We won't be able to fairly evaluate the Obama presidency, as a whole, for many years, and I agree it's premature to even start that discussion.

That said - I don't see anyone here saying that he's the "WORST PRESIDENT EVER!" People have concerns about some of his decisions regarding economics, and while time will tell whether those decisions are correct, I see no issue with people criticizing those individual decisions now. If it's ok to applaud some of what he's done now, then should be ok to criticize some of it.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

That said - I don't see anyone here saying that he's the "WORST PRESIDENT EVER!" People have concerns about some of his decisions regarding economics, and while time will tell whether those decisions are correct, I see no issue with people criticizing those individual decisions now. If it's ok to applaud some of what he's done now, then should be ok to criticize some of it.

This is why I had such a huge problem when people like Limbaugh and the ilk just straight came out and said I hope he fails.

It had a lot of sore loser saltiness attributed to it.

I mean no matter whether you like a *new* POTUS or not, instead of hoping for abject failure, it's best to just hope that they do well enough to not affect your bottom line.

No matter how much I disliked Bush, I was hoping somewhere somehow that he would do some things to not come off as a complete and abject failure, but in my eyes, it never happened but I didn't sit back and WISH him to fail.

Be nonplussed and unsympathizing yes...hope for failure...no.


That is an issue that we as citizens especially those that are not used to being in that position has to understand how to take. As they say, "When given lemons, make lemonade."

As we have said so many times already, it's way too early to tell how things are going to talk about it's going to turn out.

Another report I was trying to find is how NOW critics of Clinton are all over him stating that his economic decisions from his administration are the reason why we are where we are today.

It seems like everyone wants to point fingers of blame instead of doing something about it. Sure, we can go back and blame Bush and Clinton and Congress that met back then on things that are happening now but it's not like we can force them to change what is as it is.

What we have to deal with is what this present admin has the ability to do in the present day to fix at least a part of it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Ok...so, then does it follow that it's too early to say he's doing a good job as well?

Yep. We all have to sit on the fence until some obscure moment in time.

That would make sense IF the presidency had a grace period. It doesn't. We won't know the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of policies yet but we know some of what happens at the front end.

And, technically, the effectiveness of many administrations' policies can't be assessed in terms of effectiveness until years later, sometimes after that president is out of office. It's just like the effectiveness of other social policies and programs. You can't assume they were effective and you can't assess the effectiveness too soon.