I hope that this is true- the evolution of racial politics

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Your question is better because it speaks to reality. Most blacks aren't engaged in racial fantasies or concerned with things like reparations for slavery. But white people, in general, keep talking about that as if they have some imaginary inside scoop. It's an attempt to minimize structural and cultural factors, to the point where they become laughable and easily dismissed by those in decision making positions.

How, then, would you explain the huge support for affirmative action from blacks if they aren't trying to get reparations in that way?

[DrPhil]

fantASTic, go ahead and rethink that, edit, or whatever you need to do.

There's basic knowledge that people need if they wish to engage in these types of discussions.

[preciousjeni]

What timing! An e-mail just came out over one of my sorority listservs about the efforts of our Alpha Chapter regarding the justice system. Here's a portion of that e-mail:

Background: The Alpha Chapter has dedicated the Fall 2008 semester to raising awareness about the various cracks in the United States' Justice System. Their awareness activities began with a protest against the potential execution of Troy Davis and will continue over the next two weeks with various publicity exercises and an educational/social justice-based forum (to be held on November 20, 2008 at 7:00pm in Dey 204). Please find the chapter's event blurb/overview below.

Troy Davis: http://www.troyanthonydavis.org/

Alpha Chapter Protest: http://www.dailytarheel.com/news/uni...y/wake_up_call

Additional Information: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/10/24/...ref=newssearch

[OneTimeSBX]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Your question is better because it speaks to reality. Most blacks aren't engaged in racial fantasies or concerned with things like reparations for slavery. But white people, in general, keep talking about that as if they have some imaginary inside scoop. It's an attempt to minimize structural and cultural factors, to the point where they become laughable and easily dismissed by those in decision making positions.

while the idea of reparations was a good idea at the time, it is unnecessary in this day and age. there are no slaves left that are owed anything. i have had white people mention them to me, however, and i was very amused...i think that some white people feel that blacks still need some sort of payment for our mistreatment back in the day, or else we will retaliate when we get to a position of power. lo and behold, Nov. 4th brought that level of thinking back into their minds, and its that fear that has brought out a very ugly side of racism that a lot of us only heard about from our parents...

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

How, then, would you explain the huge support for affirmative action from blacks if they aren't trying to get reparations in that way?

Originally Posted by DrPhil

fantASTic, go ahead and rethink that, edit, or whatever you need to do.

There's basic knowledge that people need if they wish to engage in these types of discussions.

I'm interested in understanding how affirmative action is even in the same category as reparations. fantASTic?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by OneTimeSBX

i have had white people mention them to me, however, and i was very amused...i think that some white people feel that blacks still need some sort of payment for our mistreatment back in the day, or else we will retaliate when we get to a position of power. lo and behold, Nov. 4th brought that level of thinking back into their minds, and its that fear that has brought out a very ugly side of racism that a lot of us only heard about from our parents...

It's really interesting because these whites would deny that a white administration symbolized race-specific nationalism and white dominance to them. That's obvious since an administration with a black man at the head suddenly creates "fear of a black planet" and the threat that whites will lose their power position.

[OneTimeSBX]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It's really interesting because these whites would deny that a white administration symbolized race-specific nationalism and white dominance to them. That's obvious since an administration with a black man at the head suddenly creates "fear of a black planet" and the threat that whites will lose their power position.

it amuses me that those whites dont realize that if a black leader (in this case, Obama) even THOUGHT in the wrong context, someone would be on him like white on rice. i really dont think there is anything to worry about with him in office as far as retaliation...

@ preciousjeni, you are correct. they arent even in the same category. reparations was a means of repayment. affirmative action forced a level of equality among hiring minorities.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by OneTimeSBX

it amuses me that those whites dont realize that if a black leader (in this case, Obama) even THOUGHT in the wrong context, someone would be on him like white on rice. i really dont think there is anything to worry about with him in office as far as retaliation...

It's scary because this really goes without saying. Presidents never have complete decision making capacity. A minority president in a majority administration and society won't be launching a take over. LOL.

Originally Posted by OneTimeSBX

@ preciousjeni, you are correct. they arent even in the same category. reparations was a means of repayment. affirmative action forced a level of equality among hiring minorities.

I figured fantASTic was going to rethink her post to avoid a refresher course on affirmative action. I entertain questions on institutional racism because it is more abstract and complex than what we know about affirmative action policies and programs.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I have my own question. Now that there is going to be a black man in office, will the decision-makers in the criminal justice/law enforcement system now all of the sudden decide that it is a little odd that black people are disproportionately represented in the system? I have other questions too.

I would argue that the reasons behind this disparity have very little to do with "decision makers" in the criminal justice/law enforcement system (who I assume to be judges, lawmakers and police) - these decision makers have little control over educational or job opportunity, for example, two of the strongest correlating factors for finding oneself on the wrong side (rightly, wrongly or 'gray-area'-ly) of the legal system. The reasons behind the massive disparity on Death Row in Texas, for example, are much more complex than simply finding that black males get screwed by juries or judges - which is kind of ironic, as that's the classic mistake DSTC has been pointing out in this thread.

EDIT: I'm sure you realize all of this, and are more asking whether this is the opportunity for the "wake-up call" . . . my point is that whether or not it is, I'm not convinced it matters for that subset of the population. I'll go into more detail if you'd like, but I think that's a good start for feedback purposes.

[DrPhil]

This is all generally speaking, of course.

Originally Posted by KSig RC

The reasons behind the massive disparity on Death Row in Texas, for example, are much more complex than simply finding that black males get screwed by juries or judges - which is kind of ironic, as that's the classic mistake DSTC has been pointing out in this thread.

It is a classic mistake, which is why I wasn't talking about getting "screwed by juries and judges." Structural and systemic processes are much more complex than that. We're looking at outcomes without assuming the intent of the actors or arguing that it only happens at one level. They generally occur at every step, before and after arrest.

For instance, crack cocaine and powder cocaine sentencing disparities are not just about judges (or juries) intentionally handing out tougher sentences for lower class and minority offenders. Social class is correlated with race just as the types of drugs that people deal and use are correlated with race. That affects arrest, as well, with an understanding that minorities and poorer people are arrested for crack cocaine than powder cocaine. Correlates of race such as education, employment, and social class are no secret to these decision makers and disparities in outcome are factors of these. Decision makers simply respond by saying that crack cocaine was/is linked to a violent crack cocaine epidemic and that the psychotic effects of crack cocaine are different than powder cocaine---prior offense and other legal factors are also considered. Still, there are race, social class, education, etc...correlates of this that result in a certain outcome despite intent and justification.

Suffice it to say that when controlling for prior convictions and other legal factors, a lot of research consistently finds extralegal factors such as race and social class are not salient while other research still finds them to be salient. That debate aside, the substantive significance of extralegal factors is not contingent upon statistical significance if we're arguing that there are more embedded and less visible processes that lead to very clear outcomes.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

For instance, crack cocaine and powder cocaine sentencing disparities are not just about judges (or juries) intentionally handing out tougher sentences for lower class and minority offenders. Social class is correlated with race just as the types of drugs that people deal and use are correlated with race. That affects arrest, as well, with an understanding that minorities and poorer people are arrested for crack cocaine than powder cocaine. Correlates of race such as education, employment, and social class are no secret to these decision makers and disparities in outcome are factors of these. Decision makers simply respond by saying that crack cocaine was/is linked to a violent crack cocaine epidemic and that the psychotic effects of crack cocaine are different than powder cocaine---prior offense and other legal factors are also considered. Still, there are race, social class, education, etc...correlates of this that result in a certain outcome despite intent and justification.

I really like this example - I think it nicely covers both the breadth of the issue and the depth of the problem.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Suffice it to say that when controlling for prior convictions and other legal factors, a lot of research consistently finds extralegal factors such as race and social class are not salient while other research still finds them to be salient. That debate aside, the substantive significance of extralegal factors is not contingent upon statistical significance if we're arguing that there are more embedded and less visible processes that lead to very clear outcomes.

All of this sort of research is subject to so many assumptions that it wouldn't be too hard to meet a 95% confidence interval supporting whatever hypothesis you set out to prove - I will say that it doesn't pass a "smell test" for me to simply claim that the entirety of the disparity in sentencing between whites and blacks is based on socioeconomic factors, though, and I'm quite suspicious of research that claims that as its analysis.

The issue, then, becomes whether the 'best' way to approach the problem (again, hypothetically) requires addressing the underlying factors or the agents - to me, it seems that a top-down approach attacking the underlying factors will naturally lead to change in the agents, but a.) that's a decidedly long-term solution that may not be practical and b.) it's quite pie-in-the-sky. With those caveats and to get back to preciousjeni's question, I'll guess it's not too likely that many decision makers stand up and say "hey, we're on the wrong path here when it comes to the legal or criminal justice systems" - at least not immediately - and that this shouldn't be expected until there's more awareness of the underlying factors involved.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

All of this sort of research is subject to so many assumptions that it wouldn't be too hard to meet a 95% confidence interval supporting whatever hypothesis you set out to prove - I will say that it doesn't pass a "smell test" for me to simply claim that the entirety of the disparity in sentencing between whites and blacks is based on socioeconomic factors, though, and I'm quite suspicious of research that claims that as its analysis.

After controlling for other factors, socioeconomic factors may be found to be the most salient. However, any good research will acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of the analysis so none of these findings should be taken in isolation from one another.

Unfortunately, policies and programs are often based on literal interpretations of research findings and the effectiveness of the policies and programs are assumed rather than tested.

Originally Posted by KSig RC

The issue, then, becomes whether the 'best' way to approach the problem (again, hypothetically) requires addressing the underlying factors or the agents - to me, it seems that a top-down approach attacking the underlying factors will naturally lead to change in the agents, but a.) that's a decidedly long-term solution that may not be practical and b.) it's quite pie-in-the-sky. With those caveats and to get back to preciousjeni's question, I'll guess it's not too likely that many decision makers stand up and say "hey, we're on the wrong path here when it comes to the legal or criminal justice systems" - at least not immediately - and that this shouldn't be expected until there's more awareness of the underlying factors involved.

It isn't either/or to me. We need top-down and bottom-up approaches. It will take years to fully address disparities in factors like family attachment, education, and socioeconomic status. While we're working on that, we have too many poor people, minorities, and juvenile delinquents in the court and corrections systems without hope for rehabilitation or support mechanisms. This perpetuates a cycle of social disparity and violence that needs to be addressed. There's no point in improving education and other structural and cultural factors if there will be thousands of people released from facilities, and their family, who will have have difficulty adjusting to these improvements.

I am excited to be aware of the research on this and the outreach efforts that take a hands-on approach. There's a lot of stuff going on, even if the improvements are slow and seem to be falling on deaf ears.

[madmax]

The idea of black politics now tilts away from leadership based on voicing grievance, and identity politics based on victimization and anger. In its place is an era in which it is assumed that talented, tough people of any background will find a way to their rightful seat of power in mainstream political life.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I have my own question. Now that there is going to be a black man in office, will the decision-makers in the criminal justice/law enforcement system now all of the sudden decide that it is a little odd that black people are disproportionately represented in the system? I have other questions too.

Sounds like you are still blaming da man for your problems.

holla

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Great post. Playing devil's advocate here I will say that I have met a lot of black people who do feel that they are being "held down" by institutional racism- how would you argue that they have a legitimate complaint here now that the most powerful man in the world- elected by a majority white population- is black?

Reason is simple....one pebble dropping in a pond may cause a ripple but not a tidal wave....It's alomst the same way like you have certain folks who have (insert race here) friends and they think that they are 'better in touch' than people who don't.

Just because there is a different president doesn't mean that we still won't have same problems...just the same as if Palin ever became president (God Forbid!) that women still won't have issues.

[LttleMsPrEp]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Reason is simple....one pebble dropping in a pond may cause a ripple but not a tidal wave....It's alomst the same way like you have certain folks who have (insert race here) friends and they think that they are 'better in touch' than people who don't.

Just because there is a different president doesn't mean that we still won't have same problems...just the same as if Palin ever became president (God Forbid!) that women still won't have issues.

That's what I've been trying to say since Election Day.. it seems as if alot of people are saying "America has finally solved its race problems we have a black president" which is not the case. As you've said there will always be issues and people that are looking at this as a cure for all is sadly mistaken.